Introduction and vintage International 14 query.

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chris
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Re: Introduction and vintage International 14 query.

Post by chris » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:54 am

I hope we haven't put you off, you are still very welcome to come and have a sail in Blue Peter with me. Perhaps a 12 or a firefly would fit the bill well both in terms of a boat to get to grips with sailing and as a first restoration project. A vintage boat ( as we define it: with ribs and nailed together* ) does require some techniques such as steaming ribs etc and even sourcing the right materials to replace a plank or ribs is not that easy now, and they will require more ongoing care. The next step in clinker boats are the glued plywood hulls. At first glance they will look the same as the early ribbed boats but have no ribs. Many old ones stay remarkably sound but in a lot of cases the glue they used will start to fail and joint open up. Their ply can also delaminate or perish from the inside out without it being obvious at first. On the whole they will be easier to restore and maintain than a ribbed boat. The other type of hull (such as a firefly) is all laminated round a mould. It's not too difficult to repair if there is a soft part or even a hole, and they are probably the easiest of any hull to maintain. The right veneer is available too. If you are likely to sail mostly single handed then a firefly would be better as they designed to be sailed single or double handed. N12s are really double handers. * The N12 association refer to any clinker 12 as vintage whether it is ribbed or not as their later hulls were not clinker construction.

You raise the point about unknown costs. There are many boats 'free to a good home' (that's my usual price bracket!) but it will usually work out much cheaper to find a boat with reasonable sails, a sound boat cover, and a launching trolley or even a combi trailer that is roadworthy. New sails might be 1K, a new cover £2-300, and what's the cost of a trailer and trolley? Of course you might get any of these second hand. But to spend say £500 on a complete boat could be a much better deal than a free boat that lacks sails, cover or trolley.

I'm sure you could find a choice of 12s quite easily, Fireflies not too rare either. there will always be the next project too! Once I started restoring Blue Peter I was told about three other 14s looking for a new home (including Jill in fact). Ask around, check out the for sale pages of class websites, and watch ebay ( there's a ribbed merlin there now that no one seems interested in!)

Good luck

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Ed
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Re: Introduction and vintage International 14 query.

Post by Ed » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:29 am

I will try and find time for a fuller answer.....

but my first reaction is simply to endorse what Pat said. Get in contact with Chris B and go and visit him, take a look at Blue Peter and talk to Chris about what the job would entail.

Personally...... I wouldn't worry about the sailing side of this too much at this point.

For sure you will need another boat to learn to sail on....and to be your regular ride until the 14 was ready. This will take long enough for you to get your sailing up to scratch. However expert you become, the 14 is most likely to be a boat for easy sails in low winds and there is nothing wrong with that at all.

As for learning to sail, and I really don't want to annoy our RYA instructors on the forum too much..... is just not about getting an RYA level whatever.

Go and visit your local sailing clubs, especially the smaller ones, find out which ones have an interest in classic boats and just go and hang out there. Don't join, just visit, talk, blag some crewing and get to know about dinghies. In a while, once you have found some regular crewing, you might get asked to join the club, which you will be happy to do, if you feel it is the right one. If the club is unfriendly or unhelpful, then you will have learned your lesson about that club and move on.

Then buy a boat, doesn't matter too much what, although Firefly and Albi come to mind and build your time on the water. But in my experience, a mixture of crewing, crewing in racing and helming your own boats is the only way to learn to sail and the RYA course is only the very smallest part of this.

But at moment, by far the most important thing you can do, is just find a club!

If you ask, I am sure that there will be a few CVRDA forum members who can advise on good clubs or invite you to theirs.

Good luck

eib

ps I am not against the concept of your taking on Jill, but it would be a long term project and you would have to learn as you go, which would as we said, most likely mean buying, rebuilding, sailing, selling other boats along the way. But if it is what you want, it would certainly be worthwhile.
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edm
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Re: Introduction and vintage International 14 query.

Post by edm » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:20 pm

What a really beautiful and unique boat. I can't claim any expertise in dinghies of that era, but if I had somewhere convenient to store and work on her and the time to do what work is required I would go for it. It sounds like you enjoy that sort of work. I think the safety issues are not so bad as all that. I14s do have big sails, but from what I have read (eg Robin Steavenson's Marks to Starboard - which I highly recommend) in Jill's heyday it was commonplace to reef quite substantially when the wind got up. If you reduce the sail enough I imagine she would not necessarily be more demanding than a more conventional beginner's boat. In fact you could start out using a smaller set of sails from a Firefly or the like which can be found on ebay quite cheaply, thereby saving Jill's proper sails for best. The other aspect is the lack of buoyancy. Marks to Starboard explains that in those days this was deliberately limited for I14s so as to discourage poor seamanship in races. If you capsized then you had a boat full of water and the race was meant to be over for you. This reminds me of parachutes being forbidden in WW1 for British aircrew on similar grounds. This is not so good for a learner (or even an experienced sailor) as you would probably need to be rescued if you capsized and if the boat needed towing ashore there is risk of damage. To address this I think you could probably find a way to fit buoyancy bags and I don't think this would be sacrilege. The only (semi)permanent modification would be fitting mounting points on the hull, and the bags could be removed if you felt you wanted to be a purist. With the right bags I think you would be in a position to right the boat after a capsize, bail out and carry on.

Best wishes

Ed

Ian Malcolm
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Re: Introduction and vintage International 14 query.

Post by Ian Malcolm » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:02 am

Fireflys are nice boats but are a touch cramped and twitchy when compared to Uffa's larger designs. Albacores are not intended for single handed sailing but it is quite practical to do so if you either use a Firefly main or have a reefing main. I was a smallish 15 year old the first time I soloed an Alb, and had to demonstrate I could recover it from a capsize on my own before the instructor would sign off on me doing so. They are also great all-round boats - significantly sportier than a Wayfarer but nearly as versatile and suitable for family use if you are at that stage in your life. Once you have enough experience, it wouldn't be irresponsible to cruise a well equipped Alb anywhere between Chichester Harbour and Studland (W of Poole Harbour entrance). Given a good helm, they can stand up to a blow. Its not unheard of for competitors in the Albacore Worlds to go out sailing for fun in anything up to a force 7 when the race committee has cancelled racing due to the conditions. They are a restricted class not a pure one-design, so you have great freedom in fitting out as long as you don't modify the hull, sheerline or sailplan.

Back to K512 "Jill", At least you are interested, not over-confident and care about her historic value. You are therefore likely to be a good custodian. Even if you don't feel she is the boat for you right now, if you feel that you would be able to commit to a long term project, it may be worth asking Mr Webster to contact you if he has exhausted all other attempts to find her a good home. It may also be worth seeing if anyone else here is in the Southampton area and would consider becoming equal partners in her as a restoration project. That could well get you a big step up on the expertese you need + someone to crew for and to crew for you.

I'd have to check the measurements, but I strongly suspect an Albacore main would do for an International 14 reduced rig.
Last edited by Ian Malcolm on Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Itchen Ferry
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Re: Introduction and vintage International 14 query.

Post by Itchen Ferry » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:59 am

Guys,

Thanks:

Thanks again for trying to encourage me, it's classics all the way for me.

But not this one..........

I seem to have joined "The University of Dinghies" here and can't think of a forum I've used that has provided so much knowledge and advice, quite so swiftly and in a pleasantly non-judgemental fashion.

Jill K512:

Still, I bottled it with Jill and let the vendor know I thought it was too original, important, challenging and far away for me, the boat spoke to me but the practicalities screamed louder! I apologized for wasting his time and went to look at some more dinghies.......

GAS?:

There is this thing in the Guitar scene call G.A.S (Guitar acquisition syndrome) and the same with motorbikes, the "Just one more" vibe seems to hang heavily over this forum? I really cant afford to go down that route, on grounds of space, time and marital bliss.

SWMBO loves the classic idea, even accepts the logic of two boats, a user and a keeper, but a vintage I14 is a workshed hog and I can try a whole load of different classic dinghies with the time and money the I14 would need.

Training for beginners?:

I've signed up to the RYA courses at SWAC, under the Itchen bridge for a couple of reasons.

1. The clubs locally want those two qualifications as a minimum, for insurance reasons, to be able to take a club boat out.
2. SWAC runs courses often.
3. I got a gift voucher for my birthday!

I did ask about doing RYA dinghy 1,2 and 3 across 3 weekends, (RYA 3 being "better sailing"), but they advised its good to get some practice and experience after part 2, before doing part 3. Makes sense, no?

Pottering for clubs:

Over the last few months I have been pottering around the local sailing clubs trying to work out which would be best for me. I've been like a physical forum lurker; watching, wandering dinghy parks chatting to people, viewing websites, checking results and looking at fleets.

Weston, Netley, Southampton and SWAC are the most practical for me.

There are so many facets to this pastime/sport/hobby (delete as appropriate) I went to Weston and was gobsmacked by the smell of competitiveness wafting about the place, wow, don't think that's for me.

They do however have a really good looking Lightning 368 fleet and the boats and parts are available from local legend and Magnum Moth Maestro John Claridge, but I'm 6'2 and 16.5 stone so that wont work too well.

Netley was nice but at times it is rammed and very awkward to get down to.

SWAC seems expensive, busy and although the boats are modern they're mostly Topper, RS and Laser products and..zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Southampton sailing club was interesting, situated right on the mouth of the Itchen, on the southern shore, about 10 minutes walk from my house. They have just had a big grant to redo the small but now very modern clubhouse, have a brand new safety rib and are by all accounts looking to sell their random mixed old club fleet and with a grant fund a new fleet of RYA approved dinghies. I saw GP 14's, N12's, Solos, a Mirror and a Merlin Rocket, either out on the water or uncovered in the dinghy park, on just one trip.

Will start a new topic regarding what I have found in terms of finding a "daily driver" first dinghy to learn in.

Thanks again,

DF

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Ed
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Re: Introduction and vintage International 14 query.

Post by Ed » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:00 pm

Southampton looks like my kind of club to me....

When we went down to Netley, I looked at the club as we drove by and figured it was my kind of place.

It looks like it would be a good place to settle into sailing, you can always move on or try another club in a few years.

eib
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Rupert
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Re: Introduction and vintage International 14 query.

Post by Rupert » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:58 pm

I wish I had a sailing club 10 minutes walk from my house. My liver probably doesn't though!

Great think about that is you can wander down, say hi, see if anyone needs someone to sail with, and if not, wander home without having spent a whole morning driving.

I'd agree that at 16 stone, a Lightning is not the way forwards - my non classic boat is a Lightning 368, and I'd say they top out at less than 14 stone to be fun in lighter winds. However, if you were looking for a singlehanded classic, you need look no further than a Finn. Not designed by Uffa, but by Rickard Sarby from Sweden, it never the less hits some similar design notes, as it dates from 1949, and in some ways is more pre-war in its lines. You can get a smaller sail if needed, too.
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ent228
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Re: Introduction and vintage International 14 query.

Post by ent228 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:17 pm

My sailing area is 10 mins walk from home, it gives your sailing an entirely different flavour, we have very local conditions, it can be horrid a few miles away on Dartmoor and beautiful sun here on the river. It's worth spending the few mins to get to the water and is ideal for boat fettling!
The nearer the better.

Have you considered a Flying Fifteen? Lovely, elegant, classic looks, easy to sail, cheap, spares everywhere and only draws 3ft? Wood, glass and composite versions as well.

You can Lifeboat launch them if you have a decent slipway, and they are easily towed.

They are also just a stretched 14. Uffa said he stuck some longer ends on his basic 14 shape. They have a 14 rig.

He even cartopped the original one, putting the keel in the boot of his car.

Itchen Ferry
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Re: Introduction and vintage International 14 query.

Post by Itchen Ferry » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:28 am

They are also just a stretched 14. Uffa said he stuck some longer ends on his basic 14 shape. They have a 14 rig.

He even cartopped the original one, putting the keel in the boot of his car.
Had not heard that before but sounds typical of the man, what a legend!

I feel the need to confess......I er um did something I er um probably shouldn't have:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5596

DF

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Re: Introduction and vintage International 14 query.

Post by Hotspur » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:48 pm

I wish I'd looked in on this earlier. I'm in the Southampton Area (Midanbury) and have been looking for a boat for ages. I admit to having been very attracted to Uffa designs, especially the prewar boats. I've expressed interest in a Pegasus (a 14ft Uffa design similar to a slightly smaller Albacore) - would you be interested in sailing that with me until you get sorted yourself?
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Re: Introduction and vintage International 14 query.

Post by Hotspur » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:50 pm

Ah, as you were, I see you've picked up a N12! Good stuff. Used to have a Pipedream and then a Baggy. Great fun, and your capsize drill will be perfect in no time
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