Varnish types/manufacturers

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Garry R
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Post by Garry R » Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:16 pm

On my Merlin restoration I used Blakes single pack polyurethane varnish but halfway through they stopped making it. I completed the job with the last few tins they could let me have but I will want to put another couple of coats onto the new decks come winter to really get that shine that the older timber has taken up. The question is - is the new Blakes product compatible with the old stuff and what experiences have people had using one varnish type/manufacturer on top of the other (I am not wanting to use 2 pack so no need to go over the merits/demerits of that). Interested in any comments and help.

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stu
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Post by stu » Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:51 pm

i know for a fact that Wet and Windy in Bristol have a huge stock (100+ tins) of this varnish. Give Andy a call and don't forget to mention that I told you about it. May get some discount then!! :)

http://www.wet-windy.co.uk/00_contact.html
The only canoe sailor in MY village too !

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Alan Price
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Post by Alan Price » Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:01 pm

Hello Garry,
Do'nt worry too much. Any single pack varnish should be fine so long as the previous coating is wet and dried well. DO NOT USE 2 PACK on top of single pack.It wo'nt adhere and may react,
Have fun, Alan OK 1211.

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Ed
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Post by Ed » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:40 pm

I think I am right in saying that you 'could' cover single-pack poly with two-pack poly....

but why bother....two-pack is a pain to apply....and even more of a pain to remove....which sooner or later you will have to do.

I am quite amazed that Blakes are stopping doing their single pack polyurethane.....I hadn't heard this....but you are right they do seem to be removing it from their range....at least I can't see it there. I think this is real travesty....it is just such a good varnish. I can't see any other in their range which appears to be any thing similar....as all the other except woodseal use No 1 thinners.

I spoke to a salesman of theirs a year or so ago.....he was talking about introducing a water-based varnish....but still no sign of that.

I think for the moment I will have to forgo using one-pack poly and use quite a bit more woodseal and then finish off with Epiphanes.

Which to be honest is what I would advise to you.....if you have built up a nice body of hard single-pack polyurethane....it will last for ages as long as you keep the UV off it. To do this you have to keep topping up with a nice UV filtered varnish. In my opinion this is done better by a traditional varnish. It is also much much easier to get that glass finish with a trad varnish. Of course you will not want to do this if you feel that you need some more solid base....but if you have that....I would go traditional. Of course as Alan said....once you have done this, there is no turning back, you shouldn't cover trad varnish with any polyurethane.

Mind you.....between you and me.....I have often done decks in trad varnish and hulls in single-pack poly and feathered the edge between the two varnishes....and had no problems at all. Although I know that you would have problems with a twin-pack poly or epoxy-coat with tons of solvent in it. I have even put a coat of one-pack poly on a well rubbed down (year or two old) coat of trad varnish and not had any problems. Would always test first......but my experience is you can do tons of the things that they say don't do.....especially with trad varnish.....says he having just put a coat of varnish on the bow of Stu's IC at 9.00pm at night in an outside workshop.

anyway, I am rambling.....if anybody has had any experience of these new varnishes.....or has heard why they have decided to drop single-pack poly.....do tell.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
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IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
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Ed
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Post by Ed » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:59 pm

Oh Lord!

It's much worse than that.....it looks like they have removed woodseal as well....which does not surprise me really....as they are so similar products, one being an undercoat version of the other.

This is really bad news! There is not even any real point in buying some tins in for prosterity....it does not last very long.....mmmmmmm......

I do hope International do not think about withdrawing UCP....or we will be really up the creak! but the price is going to kill me.....doubt that boats will get more than one coat of primer now!

mmmmmm......

wonder what the story is.....

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

Rupert
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Post by Rupert » Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:01 am

Just hope they don't break any EU rules, or something. They are full of poison, after all! I put 3 coats of woodseal on Saskia's decks, and then, in the absence of anywhere to buy something better, used Blackfriars yacht varnish. I've used it alot before, and apart from maybe being slightly softer than really posh stuff, gives a lovely finish. I've been using it for 15 years now, and not had any trouble. And I can buy it locally, not in a boat shop, which may be why it is cheaper...
Rupert

Garry R
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Post by Garry R » Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:25 pm

Yep - Wet and Windy have about 100 tins of the single pack poly by Blakes - however if you are ordering online note that there are NO 750ml tins so it will be expensive. Blakes new varnish is called Favourite (a bit strange to call it something like that when no one has had a chance to evaluate it - but there you are!!) It is a spirit based varnish and will apparently take onto the singlepack with a good wet and dry rub down. There have been no reports of how it goes on or its wearing capabilities.

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Ed
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Post by Ed » Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:55 pm

Hi all,

recieved this email from Blakes paint....suggested he post to list, but he said he preffered it if I posted it myself.

Aladdins Caves chandlery who are a major stockists of Blakes Paints recently visited your website and read some misleading information regarding the above.
Unable to contact your organisation easily by telephone, please allow us to confirm the following:

Blakes Paint have been owned by Hempel Paint since 1994. Hempel are the largest independent paint manufacturer in the world, which has shown may benefits for Blakes Paint and our customers.

In 2003 a new range of varnishes was launched. For many reasons Single Pack Polyvarnish was not included in this range.

We have just produced our new price list for October 2004 which includes Blakes Woodseal.

If you require any further details concerning the above please contact us. Also if any of your members have a individual project they would like to obtain details of please encourage them to contact us. Classic boat restoration is an area that we do offer specialist advise, whether it is using modern epoxies such as
SP Systems or traditional materials.


Kind regards


Martin Ingram
Technical Services
Blakes Paints
Swanwick Marina
Southampton
Hampshire
SO31 7EF

Tel: 01489 864440

e-mail mi@uk.hempel.com

for those who have the slightest interest (which can't be many)....I was still curious as to why they had withdrawn single pack poly in the first place and emailed back to ask them.....also to ask why Woodseal is not mentioned anywhere on the Hempel website....and if this means it too will be withdrawn soon.

got this reply:

Ed

Thank you for such a quick reply. Perhaps I could reply by using a different font and indented text:


Ed Bremner <ed@cvrda.org>
28/09/2004 12:58


To: "Martin Ingram" <mi@uk.hempel.com>
cc:
Subject: Re: cvrda forum and Blakes Varnishes and Woodseal




Martin

great to hear from you.....and also I can't tell you how relieved that I am
that Woodseal is still in your range of primers. Although I am curious how
long you intend to keep it there. <font color="blue">Reply: Trusting that we will have a replacement for before it is dropped. As yet there is not a date, however, we will keep our customers informed. </font id="blue">
My slight skepticism comes from the fact
that there is absolutely no mention of it at all on the Hempel Website
under 'primers'. Is it somewhere else? <font color="blue">Reply: Please use the Blakes website for up-to-date information. http://www.blakespaints.com Product code for Woodseal is 25200.</font id="blue"> If so, sorry....and please do tell
me where.




I am sorry if you feel that there is any 'misleading information' on our
members forum....it is written by the members and not in any way endorsed
by the association. I can't really change what is there, although of course
I am happy to add to the thread. In this case it is easier because I think
that the email that you object to was in fact written by me.

I am quite happy to post your email direct to the forum ....but wouldn't it
be far better if you posted the information to the forum yourself? Your
email is very interesting and I am sure that many of our members would love
to hear more about Hempel and why you have chosen to withdraw single-pack poly.
<font color="blue">Reply: We would prefer you to post our reply, adding or editing if you wish.</font id="blue">

I have used and happily recommended single-pack for many years and
personally I am rather upset to see it go. It takes years to get to know a
varnish. I need to know how best to apply it.....how it will work in
practice....and very importantly how easy it is to repair and after a few
years, remove and replace. This is expensive, will lead to a likely loss
in quality and is a cycle that will take 5 years at least before I can
trust another varnish as much as I do single-pack poly.

Singlepack poly was a very 'different' type of varnish.....I have never
come across anything (except woodseal) that in any way compares and believe
me I was a great fan. <font color="blue">Reply: There are a number of options that you consider: Woodseal, Diamond Varnish ( which would be even better) or as is suggested on your website hints and tip overcoat with a conventional varnish. Have you used our new Classic varnish? </font id="blue"> Now that I can't use single-pack.....it seems likely
that I will return to using one of the varnishes that I do know and
trust....and I am afraid that my 'second choice' varnish is a lot less
likely to be a Blakes product.

I doubt that I am the only one who is going to miss single-pack poly....in
fact I know from the forum that at least one chandler bought 100 tins
before it was withdrawn.

I was less than sure from your email if you have actually visited the
'Classic and Vintage Racing Dinghy Association' Web site. If
not.....please do drop by and have a look. Especially do consider joining
the forum and making your kind offer of assistance there as I am sure that
many members would be very pleased to read your input. If you wish to make
contact with any of us at the CVRDA, that is normally the best place. <font color="blue">Reply: yes, I have thank you and registered.</font id="blue">

You might like to also see the 'hints and tips' section which has a few
pages on varnishing that might be of interest. It is a section that we are
always thinking of extending.....who knows maybe we shall..... with a range
of tests of your new range of varnishes....I know that many of our members
won't want to use the new range on their boats until they have undertaken
or at least seen some tests. <font color="blue">Reply: We have tested our new varnishes thoroughly and there has also been some article's published by sailing magazines.</font id="blue">

Anyway, must get back to work, please do consider posting to the
forum.....unless you want me to do it for you, in which case say. If you
want to contact me direct, you can do so either through this email or by
phone at xxxxxxxx
<font color="blue">Reply: We will contact you by telephone in the near future. </font id="blue">

Kind regards

Martin Ingram
Technical Services
cheers

eib



If I learn any more I will inform the list

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

Garry R
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Post by Garry R » Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:37 am

Thanks for your efforts in contacting Blakes and getting the information. I am now the proud owner of 3 tins of Blakes No 1 from Wet and Windy and can get the boat deck perfect over the autumn or spring. Now I just have to store them properly to stop them going solid in the tins!! I believe it is all down to keeping the damp out. Apparently that is why some of the lids are almost impossible to get off. I was thinking of putting them in a plastic bag, sucking the air out (as per freezer bags) and sealing them. Does anyone know what temperature I should store them until use and any tips about storing any remaining in a tin once it has been opened - I did seem to waste a fair bit during my restoration as it went all stringy in the tin.

Rupert
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Post by Rupert » Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:53 am

I have heard that storing tins upside down keeps the air out better...never had the nerve myself! Especially as the lids are so hard to remove the 1st time they never seem to be quite perfect ever again.
Rupert

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Ed
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Post by Ed » Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:24 am

this sounds silly I know......but I have not had too many problems since I have made a real effort to 'clean' the lids and can after every time I used it. I always pick cans up with the logo facing the inside of my hand so any drips are always on the other side. But with the single pack I get a thinners coated rag and clean and dry the lid and can before putting it back on......not had too many problems since that.

Not that it apparently matters now.....

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

chris
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Post by chris » Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:03 am

An old decorator chap I knew always floated a very thin skim of thinners on top of paint/varnish before putting the lid on firmly and storing the tin away without shaking it up.It usually does stop a skin forming. He also would decant some varnish into another pot or 'kettle' to work with, replacing the tin lid ASAP to the stock tin . That also keeps the varnish in the stock tin clean from dust.

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Ed
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Post by Ed » Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:07 am

Yup.....agree.....tried one of those.....and normally do the other.

both very good practice

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

Garry R
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Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Chapel Allerton Somerset

Post by Garry R » Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:42 pm

Problem with the thinners trick and Blakes one pack polyurethane is that it doesn't "dry" as such, it cures and this is driven by moisture content from what I understand. So if the damp gets in the cure is relentless - In fact I had a thinned mix of one pack form a very wobbly jelly in the tin - most expensive dessert ever!!

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