Work on Planet, N12 N672 1948

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chris
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Re: Work on Planet, N12 N672 1948

Post by chris » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:07 pm

Do you think the cuprinol, once soaked into the timber of a hull, would be dissolved back out when the boat is back in water and would this be a problem to marine animals? I would hate to be responsible for killing off all the fish in our sailing lake!

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Re: Work on Planet, N12 N672 1948

Post by Ed » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:54 pm

Hi All, esp Michael Brigg,

I am really struggling with the concept of Cuprinol being water-based.

I have just read these posts, and not being at home I can't do the obvious thing and go open a can.... and I know that Cuprinol have a large range of products, so maybe we are talking at cross purposes.....but....but... My memory of the stuff is that it is smelly, oily and has a very high VOC content. Are we really talking about the same stuff?

Just read the safety sheet for Cuprinol Wood Preserver clear:

http://www.cuprinol.co.uk/web/pdf/safet ... safety.pdf

which suggests:


DISTILLATES,HYDROTREATED LIGHT 75-100%

R52/53 Harmful to aquatic organisms, may cause long-term adverse effects in the aquatic environment.

9. PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES
Physical State : Liquid
Flash Point : > 61 - < 93 °C
Initial Boiling Point : 155 °C
Specific Gravity : 0.819
Water Miscibility : No
pH : No Information


So, this just can't be the cuprinol we are talking about.

Anybody shed any light on this?

eib
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Re: Work on Planet, N12 N672 1948

Post by chris » Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:46 pm

Ed, this is what is at the back of my mind. I remember reading about danger to aqautic life and yes I remeber it smelling of solvent and being oily so it has never occurred to me to use it on a boat (boat shed yes!).
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Re: Work on Planet, N12 N672 1948

Post by trebor » Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:59 pm

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Re: Work on Planet, N12 N672 1948

Post by Michael Brigg » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:26 pm

While looking into this I have read a rather telling comment from another wooden boat enthusiast (in America) that "It is getting harder and harder finding paints that actually kill. Pretty soon all paints will be edible and smell nice too!"

The whole idea of a wood preservative is that it makes the wood unpalatable.

I must correct myself however. Cuprinol Clear is applied with a volatile solvent, but it is water miscible, and so if you tip it into a water course or on soil, then yes it does have a powerful toxic effect, particularly to fish, as it absorbs through the gills and as a Cholinesterase inhibiter it will cause uncontrolled muscle activity, resulting in exhaustion. (Like the "Nerve gas poisoning in the Gulf War. This in humans toxicity can cause what is called the "SLUD" effect... Salivate, Lacrimate, Urinate, Defecate.)

So yes, nasty stuff. It works on insects in the same mannr as Fly / Wasp spray.

The active ingredients are 3-iodo-2-propynyl butyl carbamate (The Cholinesterase,) and Propiconazole, an Imidazole antifungal related to thinds like Canesten and Dakarin for treatment of athletes foot and thrush, which is less harmfull.

The IPBC content is @ 0.5% in 1 litre (= 50gm) which would be enough for two coats (at least) on most dinghies, and drys within 4-5 days after which it is sealed into the wood by Varnish or paint. This effectively seals it into the wood and it would only leach out very slowly if the boat was left afloat with deteriorating (or non existant) varnish.

50gm/litre = 50,000mg, and the safe limit of exposure is desinated as @10 PPM. which would be a dilution of 1litre of cuprinol in 5000Litres (about the equivalent of 5 full boat loads of water.)

So, used as a primer to be sealed in with paint or varnish, I cannot forsee any significant biohazard, unless it is incorrectly disposed of.

The toxicity studies were undertaken in Canada, where IPBC was used by the TON, for treating freash cut lumber.

It has not been banned as a result as the toxic effects of runnoff from the treated lumber was not significant. It's 1/2 life in the enviroment being @ 5-20 days, (depending on acidity of the water) and degrading (by Hydrolysis) to a product @ 1000 times less toxic.
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Re: Work on Planet, N12 N672 1948

Post by Ed » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:58 pm

I can see a quick experiment coming up....

But Safety Sheet says:

9. PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES
Physical State : Liquid
Flash Point : > 61 - < 93 °C
Initial Boiling Point : 155 °C
Specific Gravity : 0.819
Water Miscibility : No
pH : No Information

I need to check it as it just doesn't seem like something I would want to mix with water, any more than I would cellulose thinners.

I agree with you though about the danger to aquatic life, I wouldn't of thought it would be a big danger once the stuff has dried out and is covered with Varnish/Paint, but I can see that this could be more with a vintage boat where there was more chance for water to get into/between the planks/lands/boards etc.

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Re: Work on Planet, N12 N672 1948

Post by roger » Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:34 pm

Our environment has enough challenges without us adding to it. I see no need to take any chances with this or any other product.
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Re: Work on Planet, N12 N672 1948

Post by neil » Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:38 pm

Michael Brigg wrote:Just for reference...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=p3Q ... sh&f=false

And this shows just because something appears in Google it doesn't mean it's trustworthy. This advert is from 1959 (and an American advert :wink: ), wasn't this the era when smoking was good for you?
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Re: Work on Planet, N12 N672 1948

Post by trebor » Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:33 pm

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Re: Work on Planet, N12 N672 1948

Post by Michael Brigg » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:52 am

roger wrote:Our environment has enough challenges without us adding to it. I see no need to take any chances with this or any other product.
It is perhaps appropriate Roger, that this thread is within a thread about saving the planet! :roll:

The safety notices on thes products relate to the use and disposl of the products.

SO yes to Ed, the Cuprinol Clear product IS NOT misclble in water because it is made up in a volatile solution. Not quite sure what, but likely to be a bit toxic (or intoxicating) if inhaled in quantity. It is a vehicle for the preservatives which includes various salts, the Cholinesterase inhibiter (IPBM) and an anti fungal.

This does not mix with water, but the vehicle solvent evapourates after a few days, and the active ingredients are left behind, on and in the wood. These compounds are water miscible, but slowly. (The wooden posts I treated to fence around my pond have taken 6 years to a point of needing replacement, after just a single treatment) And the fish in the pond are still jumping. So, no evidence there of Aquatic long term effect.

The point I made above is that the IPBM is water soluoble, but the Cuprinol product is not. So no, you cant thin or dilute it.

If you tipped it down water course it would be locally damaging for a period of 5-100 days, if it wasn't diluted. But 1 litre (enough to treat one boat) contains 50gm of active ingredient. That entire amount will dilute to safe limits (@ 10 ppm) within 5,000 - 50,000 litres of water, (about the quantity that washes over the boat in every minute it is afloat.) so even the leakiest clinker, with frost damaged sun blistered varnish is unlikely to cause trail of destruction.

As far as those comments on radioactive toothpaste and health benefits of Smoking are concerned I would add Lady Bracknell's comments to Jack, about smoking. "That is good, I think every man should have a hobby!")
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Re: Work on Planet, N12 N672 1948

Post by Michael4 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:23 am

Michael Brigg wrote:
roger wrote:"That is good, I think every man should have a hobby!")
Excellent, mebbe I have too many!

So getting back to Planet with a capital 'P' am I OK to use clear Cuprinol (rather than water) to swell the boat (in my garage) allow it to dry off and then paint as per normal?

Using Cuprinol will help preserve the wood and the paint surface will prevent its exposure to the environment.

In the past I have used Deks Olje D1 as a wood preservative but I'm not so sure how penetrative it is. On the Tideway I treat the floorboards with an old tin of that stuff one uses to on wooden kitchen surfaces which I guess must be harmless??? At least it isn't slippy.
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Re: Work on Planet, N12 N672 1948

Post by chris » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:59 am

...and if you believe current adverts then VWs are very 'clean'.

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Re: Work on Planet, N12 N672 1948

Post by Ed » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:09 pm

So getting back to Planet with a capital 'P' am I OK to use clear Cuprinol (rather than water) to swell the boat (in my garage) allow it to dry off and then paint as per normal?
Yes, this as they say is the knub of it...

I am not going to go back but I am sure someone suggested watering down cuprinol to swell a clinker boat, which I still think is neither possible, nor am I sure it is a good idea.

mmmmm..... oh I don't think it will be that bad, but there is a pay-off, Kill-off bugs in your wood against the possible chance of killing of bugs in your lake.

My worry was slightly different, and may be inconsequential... But I worry that using strong VOCs may possibly work to 'dry' out the wood rather than 'wet' it, due to the continual and repetitive drying out process of the VOC leaching with it some water from the wood. I don't see any issue with using things with a slow evaporation rate such as Turps, especially if mixed with an oil and we have discussed this possible option. And if used once or twice any Volatile liquid will be OK, but use it too much and I think it may damage the wood, by encouraging quicker evaporation of the water. You may notice the effect that washing down wood with a really fast de-greaser like Acetone or MEP has in comparison to Water or Turps.

But anyway, the first point was that I didn't think it was possible.

This all reminded me of the practice in studio Darkrooms in the 50/60s of washing your film in increasingly concentrated solutions of meths. This would take a few mins, but once out of the meths, the film would take 2-3mins rather than 30mins to dry - useful before the advent of Polaroid and you were in a hurry. There was always the story going around that 'Old Sid' would pull the film out of the meths bath and then put a lighter to the bottom, in order to burn off the excess meths, before blowing it out - now fully dry. I could see how this might work.....but never had the nerve to try!

eib
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Re: Work on Planet, N12 N672 1948

Post by roger » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:18 pm

Michael Brigg wrote:
roger wrote:Our environment has enough challenges without us adding to it. I see no need to take any chances with this or any other product.
It is perhaps appropriate Roger, that this thread is within a thread about saving the planet! :roll:

The safety notices on thes products relate to the use and disposl of the products.

SO yes to Ed, the Cuprinol Clear product IS NOT misclble in water because it is made up in a volatile solution. Not quite sure what, but likely to be a bit toxic (or intoxicating) if inhaled in quantity. It is a vehicle for the preservatives which includes various salts, the Cholinesterase inhibiter (IPBM) and an anti fungal.

This does not mix with water, but the vehicle solvent evapourates after a few days, and the active ingredients are left behind, on and in the wood. These compounds are water miscible, but slowly. (The wooden posts I treated to fence around my pond have taken 6 years to a point of needing replacement, after just a single treatment) And the fish in the pond are still jumping. So, no evidence there of Aquatic long term effect.

The point I made above is that the IPBM is water soluoble, but the Cuprinol product is not. So no, you cant thin or dilute it.

If you tipped it down water course it would be locally damaging for a period of 5-100 days, if it wasn't diluted. But 1 litre (enough to treat one boat) contains 50gm of active ingredient. That entire amount will dilute to safe limits (@ 10 ppm) within 5,000 - 50,000 litres of water, (about the quantity that washes over the boat in every minute it is afloat.) so even the leakiest clinker, with frost damaged sun blistered varnish is unlikely to cause trail of destruction.

As far as those comments on radioactive toothpaste and health benefits of Smoking are concerned I would add Lady Bracknell's comments to Jack, about smoking. "That is good, I think every man should have a hobby!")
Call me a cynic but I have become very mistrustful of the "safety" instructions from larger corporations ever since an experienced beekeeper told a training group that it was fine to put permethrin based products in a bee hive to control varoa mite. Hang on I said permethrin is an insecticide isn't it? Well Bayer says its ok.
The same goes for neonicinitoid seed additives wont hurt the pollinator population.
I`m afraid all these companies are only interested in bottom line and their products are often shown to be harmful in hindsight.
lead based antifouling anyone?
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Re: Work on Planet, N12 N672 1948

Post by Michael4 » Sun May 08, 2016 5:04 pm

A corner has been turned...

ImageIMG_2719 by dralowid, on Flickr
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