de-bodging an Osprey centreboard case - advice req'd

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TheGuvnah
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Re: de-bodging an Osprey centreboard case - advice req'd

Post by TheGuvnah » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:00 pm

SoggyBadger wrote:
TheGuvnah wrote:So the question is: for a 100ml of mixed resin how much colloidal silica (by weight/vol) will I need to be adding to achieve a workable adhesive mix?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Nl09_h2ceE
Bingo! re the amount of colloidal silica required for varying consistencies of adhesive...

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It is definitely back on. :)

My biggest dissuasion was the thought of having to buy 6 or 7 of those little bottles, turns out I'd only need a maximum of 8% by weight. So that's 15 quid for a 600g pack of Blue Gee gloop, £7 for the filler; that's more like it.

Final question :?: - will 600g be enough to swipe all four sides with two encapsulating coats??
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Re: de-bodging an Osprey centreboard case - advice req'd

Post by TheGuvnah » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:43 pm

I've got the basic structures cut, planed and rough sanded so time for a proper dry assembly...

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Odin's beard!! :shock: this is one solid chunk o' trunk! Out of interest I'll have to borrow some bathroom scales and do a weight comparison between this and its predecessor.

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The steel screws are undersized (No.8 x 1 1/4") temporaries allowing me to take it apart and reassemble as many times as I need. Once it's ready for final gluing up they'll be re-drilled afresh for the final number 10s.

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Just need to finalise what's happening at this station where the thwart runs over it so I'll haul it down to the boat and have an 'eyes on' session on Wednesday morning. I really didn't like the fact that the means of securing it to the thwart is/was long (3") screws driven into the end grain of the two uprights and do I not like that. As mentioned previously one had completely stripped its thread which is no surprise at all. I think I'll carry the capping on under the thwart and land two fixings into that, maybe a pair of small timber brackets under the thwart either side as belt 'n braces.

The only timbers left to acquire are the bottom rails which mate it to the hog timber so a trip over to Atherstone is pencilled in for tomorrow. the epoxy and 406 filler is in the post and now all now waits upon an upward swing of the barometer.
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Re: de-bodging an Osprey centreboard case - advice req'd

Post by TheGuvnah » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:28 pm

Bit of an interruption in proceedings as I've had to divert all attention into tearing the local authority's 'solicitor' a new 'un which was time consuming but oh so deeply satisfying... but nowhere near as uplifting as getting this ruddy boat afloat will be so meanwhile back at the Workmate it was time to damn the weather and lay on this epoxy. Thankfully I'd prepared well by laying in a goodly supply of mixing containers... ( I may have over-estimated this element :) )

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In with the schlop and for a 5:1 goo/hardener ratio...

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...and very thoughtfully Blue Gee supply 6 free spreaders, although they have to be cut from the box it all came in it's the perfect gauge of polyethylene for the job.

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The first mix of 60ml gave a decent coverage when applied with a brush but was a bit thin in parts where it seemed to contract as it cured and sort of drew back into a meniscus leaving a few dry 'islands'. For the second batch I thought I'd give it a go with the scraper and mixed up just 30ml on the basis that it would inevitably produce a thinner coat. I got the amount about right but the thinness of the coat meant the raised grain showed above the surface in contrast to the (mainly) homgenous all-over coverage that laying it on heavy had yielded. Well that's that experiment out of the way, the best finish is obtained by not skimping on the quantity one lays on and if there's any left over have another 'overflow' part ready in the wings on which to hastily slap the rapidly stiffening remainder, knee braces, internal spacers, best tracky bottoms, over inquisitive child etc.

The specified mix ratio is volume based but I couldn't get hold of any of those cheap delineated cups locally so I looked up the resin/hardener tolerance for West Systems epoxy and there is a certain amount of leeway with that so guessed Blue Gee would be concocted along similar lines. That being the case I figured their relative densities won't be so different as to upset the chemistry by mixing by weight. that I could do without coughing up for and then disposing of even more plastic landfill than I'm already consigning into the earth.

I confess I'm not enjoying my first excursion into epoxy resins; it's stressy, messy, expensive and you can't deny the stuff stinks although not so bad as to be called offensive. However what also can't be denied is that it's bloody good stuff and you can't argue with the results!

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That's more like it. After 5 sessions/mixes I think I've got familiar enough with the limitations of pot life and guesstimating the amount needed, still can't wait to get the Coovars on though.

Decided I didn't much care for the line of visible stainless steel fasteners that attach the top rails from the inside of the case so I invested a fiver in a handful (100g) of 1 1/4" x 10g silicon bronze ring nails, these will also be used hold the uprights and the cappings in place backed up with filled epoxy as the adhesive...

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I might well use them (again backed up by epoxy) to fix the logs to the bottom. For comparison here's one side by side with one of the brass 'dressmakers pins' that originally did that job.

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Now that's what I call a nail!
In retrospect, and having driven one into a few test pilot holes of varying diameter I think I could well have dispensed with the 2" screws and bought a few more of these fellahs at 2" instead, meh! whatevvs :roll: just get it done and launched.
Last edited by TheGuvnah on Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: de-bodging an Osprey centreboard case - advice req'd

Post by SoggyBadger » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:31 pm

I don't think you'll need nails and epoxy as the epoxy bond will be stronger than the wood itself. I've only ever used it on smallish things but I've either just clamped the joint and left it or put in a few well-waxed stainless screws which I removed later.
Best wishes


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Re: de-bodging an Osprey centreboard case - advice req'd

Post by TheGuvnah » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:23 am

SoggyBadger wrote:I don't think you'll need nails and epoxy as the epoxy bond will be stronger than the wood itself. I've only ever used it on smallish things but I've either just clamped the joint and left it...
You reckon? Well I've not drilled for them yet so I'll have a bit of a re-think.
SoggyBadger wrote:...or put in a few well-waxed stainless screws which I removed later.
Wish I'd clocked the worth and wisdom of that advice as I glued in the spacer blocks, by Christ it doesn't half grip screws, I thought I'd shear these stainless no.10s trying to get them out. :roll: :twisted: Drilling out a rock hard, drill busting stainless screw/s? That's one hoof in the wedding veg that I absolutely do not need at this point.

For the logs I've managed to lassoo a 6' 6" long plank of reclaimed 2" mahogany from which I've had the bottom logs cut at 1 1/4" square. Tried to get enough bend into it to match the rocker but it really isn't having it and apparently mahogany doesn't respond well to steam bending either. Alternative of course is to slit them into 1/4" slices and laminate them up in a simple jig. I'm sick of spending yet another 'odd tenner' or so at the timber yard to get them re-sawn so I'm now casting around for a small but hefty bandsaw. It's long overdue and the need only grows stronger when contemplating the work required to get Flypast up and sailing. Don't know how I've managed so far without one actually.

Whilst Sunday dinner was on the go I thought I'd make a start on turning up some bushings/liners for the centre board bolt. I didn't have any ebony offcuts immediately big enough and didn't fancy two hours hacking bits off the stash of african carvings I keep for such purposes so decided to crop two bits off one of the legs of the side tables that were part of that headboard. These are solid makore and it machined very nicely.

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But... as the boys and I sat down to nosebag I noticed that my nose had started streaming, itching like crazy, and it's still doing it two days down the line. Definitely not a cold or the flu so must be some sort of rhinitis reaction to the dust in african cherry that the lathe kicked up! Never had any allergic reaction to timber before and I spent a week milling up a watch case out of cocabola with my face barely a foot away from the tool as it kicked out piles of fine-as-flour acid yellow sawdust and that stuff is notorious for its potentiality to cause sensitising and contact reactions. (I won't be doing that again without a respirator that's for sure) Hey ho, looks like the makore goes in the skip.

Gaaaarghhhh! this itchy beak is driving me nuts!!! :cry: :cry: :cry: :evil:
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Re: de-bodging an Osprey centreboard case - advice req'd

Post by SoggyBadger » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:42 pm

Wood dust allergy can apparently be quite species-specific. Hope it clears up quickly.
Best wishes


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Re: de-bodging an Osprey centreboard case - advice req'd

Post by TheGuvnah » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:03 pm

SoggyBadger wrote:Wood dust allergy can apparently be quite species-specific. Hope it clears up quickly.
Four days later and it's still irritated, streaming, still sneezing. :?: :roll: Think I'd better give the kitchen a top to toe wipe down to remove every last trace of that damned dust. But no matter; finally had a chance to whip the whole shebang down to the boat and drop it in for a first dry fit...

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The for'd end slotted snugly over the mast step like it grew there.

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The thwart sits about an 1/8" high of the top of the case but I think that's just because I just plonked it on and didn't take the time to sweep the detritus off the lands and dress back the raised bobbles (can't think of a better word?) left by the old screws.

And on the subject of screws, what is the current wisdom on what to do about the stubs left in the hog if they don't respond to my attempts to remove them? Should I be drilling them out and plugging or just cut 'em flush and leave well alone? My secret weapon in this endeavour is a beefy Albrecht chuck (fits the hand nicely and grips like a limpet) fitted on a 3MT arbor, clamp as much of the screw shank that remains and twist it out... or shear it clean off most likely... either way's good. Either way I'll have to adjust the position of the new fixings.

I have in mind to lay some epoxy on just the hog/keel timbers inside and out both to build in some water resistance and to give a smoothed level surface on which to bed the casing; thinking of using 3M's 4200 sealant for that.

You can't imagine the relief which that dry fitting session has brought; we're getting there by degrees. :D
Last edited by TheGuvnah on Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: de-bodging an Osprey centreboard case - advice req'd

Post by trebor » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:47 pm

Looks great, well done, looks like a manufactured item, rather than something done in your kitchen.

Re, The dust, their is something you can try, but it's not pleasent, fill your washhand basin with warm clean water, dip your face in and breathe in through your nose, works a treat for Hay fever.
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Re: de-bodging an Osprey centreboard case - advice req'd

Post by TheGuvnah » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:49 am

trebor wrote:Looks great, well done, looks like a manufactured item, rather than something done in your kitchen.
Crikey! now that is generous praise indeed, properly made my day that has and I thank you for it.
trebor wrote:Re, The dust, their is something you can try, but it's not pleasant, fill your washhand basin with warm clean water, dip your face in and breathe in through your nose, works a treat for Hay fever.
Bang on. Not a diver by any chance are you T? That's my go to chemical free (sort of) solution to any bout of cold or congestion and I've even got the boys used to doing it themselves. If they're going to end up in the 'oggin they'd better get used to dealing with a nose full of water. I also took it a stage further. What I do now is dissolve a heaped tspn of salt in a whiskey tumbler of warm water then suck it up onto one of those empty Sinex squeezy snorter bottle things. A blast of that up each hooter works a treat as a bit of cheap and very effective lavage for the nasal and upper respiratories. In fact in all my years as an OWSI instructor I can't recall EVER getting a cold and I'd be chucking myself into freezing quarries three and four times a week in all weathers plus all the pool sessions with never so much as a sniffle. Soon as I stopped it was back to the routine of two colds a year, one in Summer - one in Winter.

But check this out for a jaw dropping example of maxing the envelope of your suggestion ! Years ago I was reading an article about Francisco 'Pipin' Ferreras the record monstering 'No Limits' Cuban freediver who found that below 150 metres he was having trouble generating sufficient pulmonary pressure to equalize during the final stages of a descent, (well you would!). So this "head the ball" decided to try a 'little' experiment whereby he would flood the nose pocket of his mask and then inhale a quantity of water into his nose and thereby hope to generate that little bit of hydraulic assistance to force air into into the eustachian tubes to counter the eardrum rupturing pressure! Woah wait a cotton pickin' moment... at 470+ft down he decides to try lifting the mask and inhaling water :shock: !?!?!?!

Safety/recovery divers or not there's only one word for that; Ballsy!

Paid a quick visit to the boat today to see about that errant 1/8" and discovered I'd left a screw stub in one of the lands, one good thump and it sat down perfectly. It also demonstrated that despite having no case or thwarts in her for at least 2 months the dimensions haven't moved a milimetre! :D my chuffedness doth increase.
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Re: de-bodging an Osprey centreboard case - advice req'd

Post by trebor » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:43 am

Nasal thing just something I picked up years ago, always used it, loads of non drug remedies that work, NHS should be informing people, problem is drug companies, another non drug remedy that works, Gaffer tape for Warts and Verruccas, mind this now accepted by NHS.

Back to topic.
Got to say have enjoyed your serialisation of this job.
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Re: de-bodging an Osprey centreboard case - advice req'd

Post by TheGuvnah » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:33 am

trebor wrote:... NHS should be informing people, problem is drug companies,
Now ain't that the truth Ruth? GP's (aka licensed drug peddlars) are very keen to prescribe and from bitter experience with my Wife's current condition and this city's officially "Inadequate" mental health provision I can tell you that medication appears to be the first and only option. and then they expect a gold star each for writing a prescription!? :twisted:

trebor wrote:another non drug remedy that works, Gaffer tape for Warts and Verruccas, mind this now accepted by NHS.
Uncanny :? : I have a 3" strip of silver gaffer wrapped around my left big toe at this very moment, use it in combination with a dab of clear nail varnish as an occlusive but seeing as this isn't an episode of Embarrassing Bods I'll forego uploading a pic.
trebor wrote:Back to topic.
Got to say have enjoyed your serialisation of this job.
Then that is reason enough for me to continue... :D There were several reasons for starting it not the least of them being that before I launched into this I'd spent months trying to find a 'hold me hand' pictorial that described the process from A-Z all in one place but there just isn't one out there; well not until now via this one. I had to mentally assemble the process from an agglomeration of piecemeal snippets and Google image searches, bits from the Gugeon pdf and the excellent Wayfarer Restoration Manual pdf. Mind you, I say A-Z but I'd estimate I'm around the -Q-R-S- mark right now and it ain't floating yet.

And that's another reason I decided to post it all publicly; one doesn't want to be the man who talks a good 'un but, as often happens, abandons the job in silent shame when one's cash/skill set/enthusiasm runs out. ...hey ho there goes another one. :roll: Stating one's intentions on a public forum generates a useful incentive (a moral compulsion almost) to finish what I started.
To do so on a forum as prestigious as this so thickly populated with folk who genuinely know their onions brings expectations of quality and ribald scorn of bodgements. It's THE Classic Vintage & Racing Dinghy Assoc fer chrissakes, not gonna expose myself in front of such a knowledgeable and experienced membership as a witless half-arsed numpty who really should be limiting their interactions with water to flushing the loo.

And where better frankly to better find proven advice, ideas and options than from people who've been there, done that and bought many many Tee shirts.

So we're up to 107 pics so far and here are another three. With the Soggy one's advice to "...err on the side of over-engineering" still foremost in my mind I've decided to add that pair of small knee braces under the thwart either side of the case that I'd been ruminating over. So it's time to cut up another floor tile...

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It was a good way to use up the beat up end bit of one of those reclaimed teak planks as they could be laid out around the old nails holes and dents (sometime in the 80s someone had deeply scratched their account number into the varnish :shock: ). I've oriented them at 45degs to the grain so nothing will be 'gripping' into end grain and to keep the timber in compression/extension in line with the anticipated forces it's expected to resist. Seemed the logical thing to do unless anyone knows better.

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Not sure how well epoxy will hold a teak-to-teak bond so I might positively locate them into the upright case timbers with a shallow dovetailed slot, might not. Only one way to find out and that's to glue up two butt jointed pieces of teak and see how strong it is in practice.

Thanks to all who've chipped in and helped us get this far with it.
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Re: de-bodging an Osprey centreboard case - advice req'd

Post by TheGuvnah » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:32 pm

Wither fortune's wing'd chariot?

Well it's just pulled up outside as it happens :D
I've been haunting Ebay, Gumtree, Free-Ads, plant auctions and the local classifieds for nearly two months now trying to land a compact and capable bandsaw. So many times I've had the finger hovered over the BID NOW button on some piece of tinplate tat but resisted. God help me I even looked through the M*chine M*rt catalogue in desperation. And then...

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Got outbid on one last Friday (bare machine, mint condition, no stand) when I had to bail out at £77:73 and it finally went £90+. This one, a Coronet Imp, on the maker's cabinet stand ... £50 8) yoink!

Didn't yoink fast enough though to catch his other listing for a Coronet Consort combi machine...

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Rats! It would have been a perfect 'two birds with one stone' there but apparently it was collected yesterday, I'm just never that lucky :roll: never mind, it's the saw that's most urgently needed and there'll be another one along at some point in the next month no doubt. Got to drive over to Cambridge tomorrow to pick up and pay up. About 2hrs there, half hour to load up, 2hrs back, should do it in time for the school run. Smoke me a kipper.

:D
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Re: de-bodging an Osprey centreboard case - advice req'd

Post by TheGuvnah » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:46 am

Well that was a year I'll be glad to forget. :evil: Who was it said "the scariest words you'll ever hear are: 'Hello, I'm from the government and I'm here to help'." Was it Reagan? Whoever it was nailed it.

Ladles, Gents - with apologies for the extended absence but the situation with my Wife's errant 'care' team has now descended below mere farce, we're far beyond that which can be parodied (never); undying skepticism and distrust came and went 2 yrs ago and I'm left here knocking on the doors of active fulminating contempt for the sheer duplicity and wilful recklessness displayed by this clacque of swing-tagged, sanctimonious snakes in the grass. You hear about such jaw dropping tales of practiced apathetic incompetence all too frequently in the print and broadcast media but until it happens to you it seems too far fetched to believe. You think surely the hacks are embellishing it for the shock effect.

You know the sort of thing, an incident so ineptly handled that you find yourself staring at the screen/radio, mouth open, head slightly inclined, quizzically transfixed by yet another repetition of the same failures they'd been warned about and castigated for in report after report after Select Committee hearings for decades in some cases but here we are again??? You think; how can anybody be that universally obtuse? or perhaps, why the hell didn't they see that coming? or perhaps, "and how much is that going to cost to put right? Or all of the above. inevitably one invariably ends up mentally asking "and how much were they paying this clown???" But then 'they' arrive at your door, insinuate themselves and before you know it the catalogue of no-brainers grows exponentially and what was just 'devastatingly bad' before is turned to utter catastrophe!

But I do take comfort though in the oft repeated assurance that there is indeed a place reserved in hell for all such religiously PeeCee'd, proto-Maoist vandals with room temperature IQs who so lightly misappropriate and assume the title "professional" as though by claim of right. Or rather I used to; but like all public sector service providers Hades is running at beyond capacity and has been for years, the booking and triage systems have crashed and old Nick is even hiring in sub-contract agency vengeance demons! (he just can't get the staff y'see as nowadays its so hard to distinguish their CV of gratuitously malevolent tortuous misdeeds from those of the prospective clientele! But some good news at last...

I hear on the construction trades grapevine that the sealed tenders are in, reviewing is finally complete and contracts are at this moment being allocated for the commencement of Phase 1 of Beelzebub's long awaited 8th Circle Extension Project. I have a particular interest as I tendered to supply, install and commission his suite of state-of-the-art VIVISECTOR 9000s. You know, they're the ones with the high voltage trepanning facility and the CNC guided red hot jacksie pokers. Lovely bits of kit these 9000 models, real quality and super reliable so he can roast these wayward souls till the very ends of time itself, he'll do good work with them I'm sure. I'm pretty certain I've landed this one - I offered to do the whole job gratis purely as a public service to all single Fathers :lol: :lol: :lol: but I'll more than cover expenses and make a good few bob supplying the spare blades and such! Fuel costs aren't really an issue because as we know the road to hell is a short one! What's left over I can use to find new storage for the boats.

Yup 'Fraid so, the factory premises have been bought out and will soon be an MOT station. Can't imagine where I'll find the equivalent for £15/wk so potential embuggerances ahead. More immediately and importantly ... IT'S FINISHED 8) The centreboard case that is.

I think I left the thread hanging by a thr... as I pondered how to get 1 1/4" square teak logs to take up the curve of the rocker. They wouldn't, no way, so Plan B was to slit them into 1/4" laths and laminate them up with epoxy. Jig needed then so what remained of the birch ply was stiffened up with some battening and pressed into service.

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I basically clamped one of the finished sides down onto it. butted some scrap (hard) pine blocks up tight to the edge every 10" or so then drilled and fixed them with two screws from below, plenty good enough. The table saw made a rough job of the slitting but I wasn't too fussed as you couldn't want for a better key for the epoxy. In fact I had to knock them all back with a rasp. SO here's the jig with the bottom lath on the left and a stack of 3 more waiting to be glooped and clamped.

Can't afford to splash out on twenty odd clamps so resorted to ghetto methods using more screwed blocks and opposing wedges, I do like simple.

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Here goes nothing. No going back now...

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That went better than I had any right to expect but when freed from the jig it basically had no options but to conform to the rocker perfectly. I was fearing and expecting it to be a bit notchy and 'dodecahedral' because I hadn't created a proper, fully curved former but I can't see any evidence of that at all. As for teak being difficult to glue...? not from what I'm seeing it isn't. I suppose I should have (and still should) glued up a test piece (under bending tension same as the logs) to sit out on the balcony to see how the joints are going to behave long term.

A bit of a clean up needed but that rasp is my go-to for this sort of thing, get the right amount of skew exactly 'sweet-spot' right and it rips off neat shavings of hardened epoxy like it was ice cream!

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So time to fix them in place, In the end I did opt to 'belt 'n brace' it using the ring nails as well though I fully accept they were structurally superfluous I thought I'd at least tip the hat to tradition.

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More gash timber utilised for yet more improvised wedge clamps. They worked a treat.

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A bit of a clean up

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...and it's pretty much there. The top cappings are on now (epoxied and ring nailed again), the board for the winches can be fitted in situ and a pad for the mainsheet block needs to be fabricated and affixed.
I decided to go with beefing up the c/board pivot by installing some turned ebony bushings for the bolt to ride in (now upped to a meaty 12mm diameter) as the birch won't take kindly to any wearing away at its epoxy jacket, any water penetration and it'd turn black within a week.

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Nicey :D and hyper chuffed that it looks as good as it does given the environment in which it was built but oh boy did it come at a cost...

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Contact dermatitis of course. This is two weeks after the prescription for oral anti-histamines and a topical steroid cream and it finally started to heal! :twisted: :roll: This time it was the teak that bit me, and hard. At first I thought it was a chilblain or suchlike as it was just one finger and during that cold snowfall but uh uh. Within 12 hours both hands were burning, blistering and itching like nothing I've ever experienced before short of sticking my arms in a nettle patch on the hour every hour. It still hurts now if I bang them on anything. Pre-sensitisation? Hoh yuss.

Yeeeeebloodyouch! Damn this hurts. I've put an end to that by getting 3 coats o' Coovars on so now it's safe to handle. Safe yes, easy - no not really, this thing must weigh 40lbs I reckon, where the original was featherweight this is more welterweight, real ice-breaker stuff in fact that gives me an idea for the name... :lol: "Ice-Breaker" 8) I like it.

t.t.f.n.

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Re: de-bodging an Osprey centreboard case - advice req'd

Post by Rupert » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:25 pm

Ouch!
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Re: de-bodging an Osprey centreboard case - advice req'd

Post by trebor » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:58 pm

Try a Radish poultice, I know a few people who have reactions to certain types of wood, have you tried wearing latex gloves ?
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