Glue for re-decking

share hints, tips and experiences
User avatar
PeterV
Posts: 1233
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:47 pm
Location: Locks Heath, Hampshire

Post by PeterV »

Is there an alternative suitable glue for re-decking other than epoxy?
I've rebuilt the Finn's deck beams and mast support so I'm ready to redeck. I'd usually do it with epoxy but I want to get it sailing again as soon as possible and I may not be able to wait for the temperature (in my front garden) to get above 15C. Is there any other glue that would do a good job?
PeterV
Finn K197 & GBR564
Warsash
User avatar
neil
Site Admin
Posts: 1641
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:33 pm
Location: Plymouth

Post by neil »

I'd use Balcotan. I used it for redecking the Solo and Tideway. Pricing details from Robbins - http://www.robbins.co.uk/Pdf%20Files/pl5_balcotan.pdf
IC: K26
Harrier +: 2

Zenith's rebuild - www.pegasus18.com/zenith
stotty
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:28 am
Location: France

Post by stotty »

on a completely different tack - i have a french boat modeller chum here in finistere about to build a 1/7 scale model of a flying 15 (strange choice of scale from an english point of view but hey ho) - is it possibe for cockpit dimensions mast detail and rigging etc the uffa plans do not show this detail and i'm/he's at a loss
salut a chateaulin
tony s
Mirror, GP14(x2), Seadog, Blandford Nymph, and Pegasus awaiting complete rebuild!
Rupert
Posts: 6255
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Cotswold Water Park

Post by Rupert »

I used Balcotan for the Firefly - as it foams you need twice as many clamps. Twice as many as any number you can think of, really, certainly twice as many as you own, even if you happen to run a clamp making business... I had 60 when I did the Firefly, and still ran out when doing 2 side decks at once. Screwfix sell F clamps cheap.
On the other hand, I just reglued the decks on a Moth with epoxy while the snow came down outside, and a small tubular greenhouse heater (a little electric one) kept the heat up enough for the glue to go off over night, so you really don't need 15 degrees. No snow might be useful outside, mind!
Rupert
User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3486
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Post by Ed »

Whereas, I would certainly agree with you about the problems of using epoxy for coating and laminatting at low temperatures, I can't say that I have had any problems using epoxy as glue down to I would guess 5deg or so (bloody cold anyway. The only thing you have to do....is keep the epoxy indoors and mix it there to. Once it has mixed it doesn't seem to make too much difference if you bring it outside. Do all the joint-wetting first, whilst it is still reasonably thin and then once you have mixed in a filler, it gets thicker anyway so I don't think it is a problem.

Having said that Balcotan is fine for putting decks down, although personally I would use the 'normal' speed rather than the 'fast' which doesn't always give you quite enough time for a long job like putting a deck down. Of course if you are in a hurry go for it with the fast. Also the 'normal' doesn't seem to have quite so strong a foaming action.

As I said, I have used Balcotan and been happy with it.....but agree with Rupert about need for clamps, but that is par for course with putting decks down with any glue. Agree with Rupert, when I re-decked Firefly, only did half at time and used about 40 clamps for that and certainly still wanted more. Of course Balcotan 'Fast' would allow you to do both sides of decking in a day....which could be a help.

But if I was doing another deck again, I would go back to epoxy, I find it a much nicer glue to work with, its not nearly so messy, you can clean it off your hands, it goes off in a much more predictable way, is better at gap-filling and I reckon is much stronger. Also, I have recently had a few balcotan joints fail. (Silly things - like a coat rack - all joins lasted for 6-9 months and then each one failed one after the other, although have also had to split a balcotan joint and found it much easier than i would of expected.

Yea....I would still go for epoxy with a fast hardener.....and wouldn't worry about the temperature at all. Just keep it as warm as possible.

Strangely enough, what can I think be more of a problem with working with epoxy at this time of year is making sure that the wood is reasonable dry. It is worthwhile trying to make sure the boat is nice and dry....and keep the ply indoors before use as well.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3486
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Post by Ed »

Stotty,

completey different tacks.......could most probably do with completely different threads!

:-)

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
User avatar
PeterV
Posts: 1233
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:47 pm
Location: Locks Heath, Hampshire

Post by PeterV »

Thanks for the advice.
I certainly favour using epoxy because it means I can coat the underside of the deck first (indoors) as well. I'm also a bit worried about all the clamps, as it's the foredeck I'm doing and the majority of it is forward of the bulkhead I cannot really clamp any of it. I can put a heater or lightbulbs inside though so I'll do that to help the epoxy go off.
...but before I do I must remember to bolt my new adjustable mast step in!
PeterV
Finn K197 & GBR564
Warsash
Rupert
Posts: 6255
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Cotswold Water Park

Post by Rupert »

When doing the very curved side decks of the Moth I have in, the curviture was too great for weights, and there are no gunwales to clamp down to. In the end, I had to screw through scrap bits of ply to hold it down, and accept that I would have holes to fill in the deck at the end of it. For the curve of a foredeck, it may well be that lots of weight (I had everything from weight training weights through concrete blocks and soup cans to part of an old theatre chair holding the foredeck down this time round!)will suffice. As you will be outside, there will be no ceiling to jam wood down from, of course...
Rupert
Garry R
Posts: 856
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Chapel Allerton Somerset

Post by Garry R »

In the frozen north if you had to wait for 15C for the epoxying you would spend all summer restoring and all winter admiring!! The boat would never actually be sailed!! As Ed has said epoxy seems to work pretty well down to 5C although it obviously is slow. I certainly wouldn't try an epoxy finish coat in these conditions as it is most likely to bloom but gluing is fine. Is it my impression but the glue seems to go off faster when there is some additive in it - either the fibres or microballoons. I generally have a heater going (but not always). If you are outside, a good trick is once you are glued up and everything fixed in place put an electric fan heater inside the boat, put a length of wood from the foredeck to the transom as a support (possibly the boom?) and cover the cockpit area with a piece of thick plastic to make a sort of tent - the damp proof course sheeting is great. This really keeps the heat in and the thermostat in the heater clicks in and out so it doesn't cost an arm and a leg. I used this idea a lot on Gannet for the deck framing and the decking itself and can confirm it is the only way to get the job done at any speed!! As a plus, the cold weather gives you a lot more time to get the wood into position. Regarding fastening the decks, I know it is nice to have no pins but Wyche and Coppock used brass or copper pins to hold their decks down. I think that Howard's Nat 12 which was at Clywedog last year is very original and was pinned every 4-6" and I did that on Gannet too although her foredeck is not very curved. I still would love to get hold of a W & C makers plate if anyone comes across on on their travels. 'Tis all that's missing.
User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3486
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Post by Ed »

Got a Souters one....and a Fairey one.....but no Whyche & Coppock. Did they all have them? My W&C Merlin certainly didn't.

Agree with use of fan heater, it is amazing how much that heats up boat. I have also used the long low-wattage garage heaters to dry out boats with great sucsess. Although they are only 60w or so, they really warm up the boat after a while. So much so that sometimes when I have put them in an upturned hull, I can actually feel the heat on the hull, when I have put my hands on the hull.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
Garry R
Posts: 856
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Chapel Allerton Somerset

Post by Garry R »

It certainly did have a name plate as the transom brace behind which the bronze transom horse fitting is hidden had a little rectangular area which was a distinctly different colour and had pin holes at each corner. The brace was removed because it was mutilated (it's the only word really) when someone had put in the roll decks and I replaced it with timber cut from the one remaining thwart which also had been butchered to form a cross brace for the stern deck. Rockets were generally designed to be more open for sea sailing and as there was no way that they would have put a name plate in the position it was and promptly covered it with decking I realised that she would have been the open design. (Lots of detective work before I started!!) In fact she is very like the picture of Hallowe'en as shown in Robin Steavenson's book "When Dinghies delight" which has a lot about National 12s but more than a little about the design and history of the Rocket before and during the merger with the Merlin fleet. Mind you whether she will go as fast as Hallowe'en in the picture of her heavily overpowered at Hollingworth with National 12 sails up I am not too sure!! I can dream..... but you should read the book - it really is a delight as is Keith Shackleton's recently reprinted "Shakewell Afloat"
Garry R
Posts: 856
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Chapel Allerton Somerset

Post by Garry R »

Just as a follow up - if you don't have a W & C name plate spere has anyone got one on a boat that they could photograph and send to me. If I get the right font I am sure I could get one cut locally out of the appropriate plastic at a trophy centre or some such.

My email is gjr@rowett.ac.uk if you can email me one. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help one way or another
User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3486
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Post by Ed »

Fraid not....as I said my Merlin didn't have one any way.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
User avatar
neil
Site Admin
Posts: 1641
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:33 pm
Location: Plymouth

Post by neil »

I have one on my fifteen. I'll photo it tonight. I also know of one on a MR that is about to be burned (it may alrady have met that fate). I'll go and have a poke one evening after work
IC: K26
Harrier +: 2

Zenith's rebuild - www.pegasus18.com/zenith
Pat
Posts: 2555
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:42 pm
Location: West Wiltshire (Wessex)

Post by Pat »

Get the hull number of the MR too please for the records.
(Half Cut and What a Lark Removals Ltd)
Post Reply