You have never been hit by an asymetric sailing on port tacking down wind, whilst yoy are running down on starboard. Firstly they can't see you. Secondly they do not want to bear away as they lose pressure speed and get teabagged. Thirdly they shout out of control and hit you anyway. untill you have been seriously hurt by a bowsprit and had your boat badly damaged in the process how could you know. Keep Asymetrics out of CVRDA.
Al
Handicaps
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alan williams
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Last edited by alan williams on Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Interesting discussion. I agree with Jim C, you need to make very big changes to PYs before you change the results. We run a personal handicap series at Baltic Wharf, we change the top 2 or 3 boats by about 20 or 30 and everyone elses by 200 to 500 to give them the same chance of winning.
I like Ed's point, change the handicap until you have the same chance of winning. I'm not sure we quite appreciate what that means. I still think my Finn would be much more competitive racing with the Needlespar/Musto rig than the Bruder/Elvestrom so the change needs to be quite big. How would we rate a Firefly with Reynolds mast, 60s flat terylene sails and tufnol blocks? It would be great if we could get the handicaps such that we encourage boats to sail in their original state of tunre, and I'm glad that we're striving towards it.
I like Ed's point, change the handicap until you have the same chance of winning. I'm not sure we quite appreciate what that means. I still think my Finn would be much more competitive racing with the Needlespar/Musto rig than the Bruder/Elvestrom so the change needs to be quite big. How would we rate a Firefly with Reynolds mast, 60s flat terylene sails and tufnol blocks? It would be great if we could get the handicaps such that we encourage boats to sail in their original state of tunre, and I'm glad that we're striving towards it.
PeterV
Finn K197 & GBR564
Warsash
Finn K197 & GBR564
Warsash
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alan williams
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The reason that a high powered Asymetric not a slow asymetric which cannot apparent wind sail anyway, can't see you or hear you is firstly the size of the sail prevents the crew seeing anything from the bow to pass the shrouds to leeward. and secondly the noise made by vibrating foils especially on SMOD's. When did you last have a really high speed Asymetric in a force 5-6 barreling down wind on to you. As I said before Windward leeward sailing would open up a can of worms. I f we argued your case Rupert we would all be sailing little boats with out trapezes and spinnakers round smaller and smaller puddles in ever decreasing circles. Whats wrong with 505,s, Ospprey.s FD., Fireballs and Hornets etc. they all sail triangular courses well and you can see where you are going.alan williams wrote:You have never been hit by an asymetric sailing on port tacking down wind, whilst you are running down on starboard. Firstly they can't see you. Secondly they do not want to bear away as they lose pressure speed and get teabagged. Thirdly they shout out of control and hit you anyway. untill you have been seriously hurt by a bowsprit and had your boat badly damaged in the process how could you know. Keep Asymetrics out of CVRDA.
Al
Al Finn424. Nacra1879,Shark41 the Dolphins and soon to be if the old kneejoints still work FD crew.
Last edited by alan williams on Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
The merlin vintage py’s make no allowance for modernised old boats. There are several from the 50’s and 60’s with very up to date rigs sailing off the same py as a boat in original condition which is ridiculous. It’ OK to modernise if you want to play in the modern fleet, but a vintage event must be about vintage-ness. How about introducing a no carbon-kevlar rule? As the years move forward this problem will get more and more critical so why not be stricter now and avoid future problems. Stick to materials pre-1965 for instance.
As a matter of interest how would you rate the balance of rig to hull in the performance of a boat? I recon the rig would count for more than 50% of the speed. So if this is modern should it be elligable?
This would encourage those updating a boat to, at least, keep the original rig. Originality will become more important as time goes on, I’m sure of that.
I wonder if the discussion about the fasted boat for pot-hunters is over emphasising our racing and taking it too seriously. We are about Vintage boats (and classic and Old) primarily rather than a high powered racing organisation. I don’t think that many ultra serious racers will join in just for our racing. Perhaps our nationals should have more of a Regatta feel than National Championship –feel to them. I expect there are more than a few people keen on restoring and caring for old boats that actually don’t rate racing as their top priority – we should cater for them more.
Our ongoing 25year rule does need more thought. The vintage wing, in practice, covers a period from just pre-war to about 1955, the Classic wing from then to 1965, The Old section is unlimited and will soon cover a period twice the period of the other fleets. We are the CVRDA not the ORDA. This would unbalance the CVRDA and could marginalise the earliest boats, which to me should be the core of our activities.
As a matter of interest how would you rate the balance of rig to hull in the performance of a boat? I recon the rig would count for more than 50% of the speed. So if this is modern should it be elligable?
This would encourage those updating a boat to, at least, keep the original rig. Originality will become more important as time goes on, I’m sure of that.
I wonder if the discussion about the fasted boat for pot-hunters is over emphasising our racing and taking it too seriously. We are about Vintage boats (and classic and Old) primarily rather than a high powered racing organisation. I don’t think that many ultra serious racers will join in just for our racing. Perhaps our nationals should have more of a Regatta feel than National Championship –feel to them. I expect there are more than a few people keen on restoring and caring for old boats that actually don’t rate racing as their top priority – we should cater for them more.
Our ongoing 25year rule does need more thought. The vintage wing, in practice, covers a period from just pre-war to about 1955, the Classic wing from then to 1965, The Old section is unlimited and will soon cover a period twice the period of the other fleets. We are the CVRDA not the ORDA. This would unbalance the CVRDA and could marginalise the earliest boats, which to me should be the core of our activities.
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alan williams
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CHris,
Like Alan W, I too could not agree more with your comments. If I wanted to have a merlin with a deck stepped fully carbon raking rig, then I'd have a Tales hull to step it on to.
Why then put such a rig onto a 50 year old hull unless it is purely to somehow enhance the performance.
This is just the sort of lead that we should be taking: If you sail a vintage or classic boat then you can do as you wish - but it will have a handicap implication when you come to race. It shouldn't be too hard to set something out so that 'up front' everybody knows where they stand..
Did you see my other question to you regarding the all up weight of No 6?
and out of this figure - how much is in the centreboard?
D
Like Alan W, I too could not agree more with your comments. If I wanted to have a merlin with a deck stepped fully carbon raking rig, then I'd have a Tales hull to step it on to.
Why then put such a rig onto a 50 year old hull unless it is purely to somehow enhance the performance.
This is just the sort of lead that we should be taking: If you sail a vintage or classic boat then you can do as you wish - but it will have a handicap implication when you come to race. It shouldn't be too hard to set something out so that 'up front' everybody knows where they stand..
Did you see my other question to you regarding the all up weight of No 6?
and out of this figure - how much is in the centreboard?
D
David H
Sorry David I had missed that. Before the winter I want to take the board out of no. 6 so refill the trailing edge...It's a clever design in the way that it rolls up and forward but nearly always hacks a chunck out of the back each time. I'll weigh it then. The 1946 rules state that:the board must not exceed 50lbs. (this could well be the weight of Iska's) Hull weight (stripped of detachables and without centreboard) 190lbs for clench-built or 165 for ply hulls. The mast must not be less than 50lbs. A new boat must be measured before it has been in water. The sail are was originally 100sq ft now it is about 10% more even before the unmeasured area.
I have a copy of the original spec and also the first 1946 year book if you would like a photocopy.
I also remem,ber the Nat 12's yearbook some years ago had a chart showing the decrease in hull weight allowed over the years. modern rules are not that far off half the weight originally allowed!
I have a copy of the original spec and also the first 1946 year book if you would like a photocopy.
I also remem,ber the Nat 12's yearbook some years ago had a chart showing the decrease in hull weight allowed over the years. modern rules are not that far off half the weight originally allowed!
By the way, David, It might have surprised you to see 'ply' in the original 1946 rules but apparently the syndicate were thinking ahead and assumed there would be smooth laminated hullls (eg Fairey) and only built the first few clinker as it needs much less in the way of a mould (=expense). But no maker would consider making a full mould for a development class as it would be out of date too soon. So clinker they stayed. Their use of ply wasn't at the time thinking glued-ply-clinker.
Hi Chris. I think the N12 rules have been altrered over time so its the all up weight must not be less than etc. They chuck everything in the boat so the hull and mast weights have plummeted. The new boats are probably carrying full lumps of lead round. My 12 would have been weighed as a bare hull for the certificate. The 48lb cp then slotted in and the mast added with its own weight stamped on it. I think in 1936-39 they thought the all up 12 weight with average crew came in at around 500 lb. They said it wouldn't plane. Mine does for a while in a blow but then falls over or suddenly comes off the plane and searches for the sea bottom.
Where on earth do I say that? If any Asymmetric classes come along, I'd have thought they'd be very happy racing against your list of fast symmetrics on a triangular course, in which case they would be sailing similar angles and probebly similar speeds, so where is the problem? Personally, I found racing against big, unmauverable cats at Roadford far more scary.alan williams wrote:The reason that a high powered Asymetric not a slow asymetric which cannot apparent wind sail anyway, can't see you or hear you is firstly the size of the sail prevents the crew seeing anything from the bow to pass the shrouds to leeward. and secondly the noise made by vibrating foils especially on SMOD's. When did you last have a really high speed Asymetric in a force 5-6 barreling down wind on to you. As I said before Windward leeward sailing would open up a can of worms. I f we argued your case Rupert we would all be sailing little boats with out trapezes and spinnakers round smaller and smaller puddles in ever decreasing circles. Whats wrong with 505,s, Ospprey.s FD., Fireballs and Hornets etc. they all sail triangular courses well and you can see where you are going.alan williams wrote:You have never been hit by an asymetric sailing on port tacking down wind, whilst you are running down on starboard. Firstly they can't see you. Secondly they do not want to bear away as they lose pressure speed and get teabagged. Thirdly they shout out of control and hit you anyway. untill you have been seriously hurt by a bowsprit and had your boat badly damaged in the process how could you know. Keep Asymetrics out of CVRDA.
Al
Al Finn424. Nacra1879,Shark41 the Dolphins and soon to be if the old kneejoints still work FD crew.
Rupert
For my ha'peth worth it aint broke yet so don't fix it, but I agree wholeheartedly that we need to be prepared.
I am guilty of taking part in the Roadford event this year using a carbon mast and mylar sail and was told in no uncertain terms at one stage to 'get my modern boat out of the way', until I pointed out that it was a 1975 boat (thank you Stu). At that time my alloy mast and Dacron sail did not fit the boat and could not be used so I was having a go with a new rig to set it up, which my results showed. My point is, just because a boat has been updated it should not be excluded, but handicaped.
I would be the first to admit that now my carbon rig is sorted it is much faster than the classic needlespar dacron sail set up, but this can be easily levelled by adjusting the PY as we do as a matter of course at Roadford. I believe the object of the game is to get the accepted classes of boat to race together for mutual enjoyment.
I believe the best way to do this is to pursue the CVRDA logbook suggestion which would require the boat, not the owner, to have a document listing its specification and noting any alterations from its original build which would improve its performance over it's PY. From this logbook the 'Handicapping Committee' could issue a CVRDA Handicap, any upgades or future changes could be added or taken into account, and in the event of a wild difference in performance from that expected the handicap could be reviewed and adjusted either way.
This initially would create a fair bit of hassle to put in place but it works well in historic motorsport and has prevented a good deal of pothunters from getting an unfair advantage. If a modification has not been declared and taken into account on the handicap the competitor can be penalised.
Maybe the logbooks and scruteneering could even raise some revenue for the association, certainly a logbook for a historic competition car adds value to it by declaring its acceptability and provenance.
I will now put on my tin helmet and take cover.
I am guilty of taking part in the Roadford event this year using a carbon mast and mylar sail and was told in no uncertain terms at one stage to 'get my modern boat out of the way', until I pointed out that it was a 1975 boat (thank you Stu). At that time my alloy mast and Dacron sail did not fit the boat and could not be used so I was having a go with a new rig to set it up, which my results showed. My point is, just because a boat has been updated it should not be excluded, but handicaped.
I would be the first to admit that now my carbon rig is sorted it is much faster than the classic needlespar dacron sail set up, but this can be easily levelled by adjusting the PY as we do as a matter of course at Roadford. I believe the object of the game is to get the accepted classes of boat to race together for mutual enjoyment.
I believe the best way to do this is to pursue the CVRDA logbook suggestion which would require the boat, not the owner, to have a document listing its specification and noting any alterations from its original build which would improve its performance over it's PY. From this logbook the 'Handicapping Committee' could issue a CVRDA Handicap, any upgades or future changes could be added or taken into account, and in the event of a wild difference in performance from that expected the handicap could be reviewed and adjusted either way.
This initially would create a fair bit of hassle to put in place but it works well in historic motorsport and has prevented a good deal of pothunters from getting an unfair advantage. If a modification has not been declared and taken into account on the handicap the competitor can be penalised.
Maybe the logbooks and scruteneering could even raise some revenue for the association, certainly a logbook for a historic competition car adds value to it by declaring its acceptability and provenance.
I will now put on my tin helmet and take cover.
GBR74 ex custodian of
GBR384 Mickey Finnale (Taylor,wood)
GBR455 Rubber Duck (Taylor, grp)
FD GBR350 Supercalifragalisticexpialidocious
GBR384 Mickey Finnale (Taylor,wood)
GBR455 Rubber Duck (Taylor, grp)
FD GBR350 Supercalifragalisticexpialidocious
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alan williams
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- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:44 pm
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Rupert
You just don't get it Asymetric boats due to design are very ineffiecent on a conventional course which is why they always sail windward leewards. We have raced against RS800 in Hornets and blown them away on a convetional triangular course hence the demand to sail windward leewards is just that theres horses for courses. In the past every time I've been in a mixed fleet with asymetrics and its not been at Roadford or Mayflower OOD's have given way to pressure from the Asymetric sailors. I'm sorry if I misrepresented you and do apologise for that.
As for Cats the only really big Scaryone at Roadford is mine and I have never intimidated another boat let alone hit one. Should CVRDA accept Asymetrics they would need a seperate course and race officer inorder to have fair racing for all and to avoid the risk of blindside collisions. At Mayflower we used to race against some of the top RS800 sailors in the country at that time and even they used to have numerous blindside collision amongst themselves.
Al
You just don't get it Asymetric boats due to design are very ineffiecent on a conventional course which is why they always sail windward leewards. We have raced against RS800 in Hornets and blown them away on a convetional triangular course hence the demand to sail windward leewards is just that theres horses for courses. In the past every time I've been in a mixed fleet with asymetrics and its not been at Roadford or Mayflower OOD's have given way to pressure from the Asymetric sailors. I'm sorry if I misrepresented you and do apologise for that.
As for Cats the only really big Scaryone at Roadford is mine and I have never intimidated another boat let alone hit one. Should CVRDA accept Asymetrics they would need a seperate course and race officer inorder to have fair racing for all and to avoid the risk of blindside collisions. At Mayflower we used to race against some of the top RS800 sailors in the country at that time and even they used to have numerous blindside collision amongst themselves.
Al
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alan williams
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Good idea Graham paper work provides a firm base for the establishment of a handicap which is based on the boat at the time of issue. This addresses all the whining about ones handicap number which can still be modified if mods are made to the boat which are not in the spirit of the CVRDA but may conform to the class rules of that class. That would catch these very old hulls using carbon spars kevlar sails etc. and maywell encourage people to restore boats to their original spec. if possible.
Al
Al
Totally agree Graham.
As I have said before, many of the original ideas behind the CVRDA were very much based on classic motor racing, bikes which were my interest and cars, which were my brother and fathers interest. So I was pretty aware of how classic racing was organised in cars and bikes.
The idea of a classic CVRDA racing log-book and license was always one of my original ideas and I still think it has much to recommend it. Not least of all it encourages the collation of information, stories, photos etc about the boat. It was part of what 'I' wanted to get out of the idea of a National Small Boats Register....which if I can ever get off my arse and find 5 mins I will explain.
It could also show the boat had been scrutineered and was seen as being safe and well kept. This could be a BIG help in getting insurance. One of the reasons we find it hard to get insurance is because underwriters are scared about the condition of old wooden boats. Well a log book that states the condition of boat and has to be signed every year (at an event) would both give a reason to attend regattas and also provide insurers with a reliable assurance of condition.
This would also raise the value, percieved and real to a boat. You are not sure of a boat, when looking at it on ebay, but are reassured by the fact that it has a recent CVRDA racing log or license.
I don't think it would have to be an immense task.
You would need to keep a database of the boat, a description of condition and state of tune and a list of the handicaps that it has in its life. The owner could then keep a print-out which could be emailed to them.
You could also keep it online, giving everyone an idea of what boats are in the association.
The original idea was always that the CVRDA was more about the boats than the sailors and this seemed to be a great way of getting that balance right.
When I have brought it up in past, the worries have been:
the amount of work to set up
Time taken to do it, especially if lots of new boats turn up at an event and we don't want to turn any away.
making sure it does not become a 'personal' handicap in disguise
Does CVRDA Become legally liable if we say its OK, then mast pulls out of chainplates.
Those are all real worries, but I don't think any of them are impossible to deal with.
Would love to see it happen
cheers
eib
As I have said before, many of the original ideas behind the CVRDA were very much based on classic motor racing, bikes which were my interest and cars, which were my brother and fathers interest. So I was pretty aware of how classic racing was organised in cars and bikes.
The idea of a classic CVRDA racing log-book and license was always one of my original ideas and I still think it has much to recommend it. Not least of all it encourages the collation of information, stories, photos etc about the boat. It was part of what 'I' wanted to get out of the idea of a National Small Boats Register....which if I can ever get off my arse and find 5 mins I will explain.
It could also show the boat had been scrutineered and was seen as being safe and well kept. This could be a BIG help in getting insurance. One of the reasons we find it hard to get insurance is because underwriters are scared about the condition of old wooden boats. Well a log book that states the condition of boat and has to be signed every year (at an event) would both give a reason to attend regattas and also provide insurers with a reliable assurance of condition.
This would also raise the value, percieved and real to a boat. You are not sure of a boat, when looking at it on ebay, but are reassured by the fact that it has a recent CVRDA racing log or license.
I don't think it would have to be an immense task.
You would need to keep a database of the boat, a description of condition and state of tune and a list of the handicaps that it has in its life. The owner could then keep a print-out which could be emailed to them.
You could also keep it online, giving everyone an idea of what boats are in the association.
The original idea was always that the CVRDA was more about the boats than the sailors and this seemed to be a great way of getting that balance right.
When I have brought it up in past, the worries have been:
the amount of work to set up
Time taken to do it, especially if lots of new boats turn up at an event and we don't want to turn any away.
making sure it does not become a 'personal' handicap in disguise
Does CVRDA Become legally liable if we say its OK, then mast pulls out of chainplates.
Those are all real worries, but I don't think any of them are impossible to deal with.
Would love to see it happen
cheers
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it