Which Singlehander?

General chat about boats
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Ancient Geek
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Re: Which Singlehander?

Post by Ancient Geek » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:47 pm

I would agree absolutely with David C, whilst ackowledging the need for administration, we need to wrestle care if not total control from those who would dictate the way we enjoy our sport and in what we do it, largely for neat commercial reasons. The various authorities show the excess and arrogance of the Blair years and we know where that leads!
Fewer persons are staying sailing long term than were.
As to David H's comment about Merlin Rockets the only problem with ever sailing a Merlin Rocket is that it is such a sharp tool that everything else Finn, Flying Dutchman, 505, Dragon, Class 1 Ocean Racer, 12 Metre, J boat anything else seems so blunt. It is a fantastic boat whilst i have only raced one once since 1970 I still think back to those days with nostalgia and retrospective thrills and ecstacy. I do sometimes wonder if the boat might not have been better (Possible?) if the beam had been capped at 6'6" rather then 7'. But one cannot go back now. The Vintage Fleet seems rather keener and enthusiastic than the new.
Simples.

davidh
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Re: Which Singlehander?

Post by davidh » Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:22 pm

David, (which David...Ancient Geek David)

Thanks very much for the endorsement of what I was trying to say. The Merlins are almost a 'breed apart' from the rest and once you've been in them, all else pales into insignificance. In all the boats that I've sailed, I've only found one other fleet quite like it and that is the Contender. There, the spirit within the class is something akin to that of the Merlin, the telling factor is that once people have been in the fleet, they either return, wish they could return, or look back with fond memories.

I count myself lucky to have sailed both and if the finance situation improves, will sail both again!

D
David H

Michael Brigg
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Re: Which Singlehander?

Post by Michael Brigg » Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:06 pm

Dame Maggie Smith, aka Miss Jean Brodie said:-
Give me a gairl at an impressionable age and she is mine for life.
Davidh said:-
the telling factor is that once people have been in the fleet, they either return, wish they could return, or look back with fond memories.
The same could be said for the Hornet from what I hear (although it seems David's fond memories of that fleet are somewhat confuzzled) and also each one of us can recall the first fumblings we had of disinhibited behaviour within the fleets of our youth.

Sadly there is a tendency when returning to find that we are like dimly remembered Odeyseus and the fleet socials have other bright young things making the social life fly. Unless you are fortunate enough to have children who sail in the fleet you are likely to be an onlooker and few of us have the strength to draw back the bow of our youth to fire the arrow through ten hoops and slaughter those who have usurped our position.

The real measure of a fleet is in the way it makes a newcomer at home in the fleet or welcomes back its past members. Most SMOD's lack the history or tradition to allow this. Furthermore a singlehander fleet might be expected to have some difficulty developing its social side unless the boat is truly equal for both sexes or the main social life runs along the lines of a Hairyback rugger club. I could draw on other grecian analogies here but that might be controversial!

Surely the best singlehander is the one that your friends sail. Period.
Michael Brigg

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Re: Which Singlehander?

Post by Ancient Geek » Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:49 pm

I'm sure Michael is right too though Miss Jean Bridie hijacked that phrase from the Jesuits!
Simples.

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jpa_wfsc
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Re: Which Singlehander?

Post by jpa_wfsc » Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:26 am

JB9 wrote: Still, back to the original point, my son has aspirations to sail a foiling moth. An older "lowrider" can be bought for not a lot, made of ply too. A little more technical than a Europe perhaps?
We just did exactly that for Matthew - 13. Mat is a good sailor, but definitely finds 'The Hopple' quite a chalenge - but a fun and rewarding one. (So do i!). 'The Popple' is the Parker moth that Rupert used to sail - there are pictures on the gallery.

I dont think that its more technical than a Europe though. The europe recently in for a repair at Lynall boats in Cheltenham was every bit as complex as a modern Finn, with inhaul, downhall, halyard tension and outhaul all adjustable (as well as the more obvious controls). 'The Popple', has - well, mainsheet, kicker (just about) and thats it.

I doubt if we will ever find a local fleet of older lowrider moths arround for him to sail against, but he has competed in a few club races. And as you say, they are not expensive.

Smiles per pound? Only beaten by International Canoes (in the S/H world, that is).
j./

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Nessa
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Re: Which Singlehander?

Post by Nessa » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:04 pm

I was watching a British Moth out on Stanborough Lake today and thought of this thread. It looked lovely. I want one..... :)
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Nigel
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Re: Which Singlehander?

Post by Nigel » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:51 pm

So which classes are that far out in weight? I've heard many times this mentioned but rarely an actual case. It sounds like you have the inside track on such things, so maybe an example, if only so we know what to avoid?
I did hear some stories about the current SB3 fleet.

iIt is also about distribution. Perhaps pendulum tests are the answer - is it the Finn that has that now?

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Re: Which Singlehander?

Post by Rupert » Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:35 pm

Nessa wrote:I was watching a British Moth out on Stanborough Lake today and thought of this thread. It looked lovely. I want one..... :)
Nice boats - great for racing other Moths in, but I found it frustrating on fairly "open" lake water in a handicap fleet. on very enclosed water they are a bandit, which has skewed the handicap too much, at least in my opinion. Could be I wasn't doing it right, of course...
Rupert

DavidC
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Re: Which Singlehander?

Post by DavidC » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:00 pm

While I wish I could name the people who tell me things of course a never can. Likewise I cannot list classes specifically. All I would say is buyer beware and never trust a salesman or marketing department. I know I was involved in fitting out on model and the varied between 64kg and 75kg. They were never corrected! And so it goes on. The SB3 mentioned above did indeed have a major problem with weight and it was only solved (lots of corrector weights to even out the class) by the some people who control the "recognized" status it has now from ISAF. No proper class rules - no status. As an aside, ISAF status is actually very useful. It might not mean anything to us in this country but in very many countries it is important.

As an example When I set the Melges 24 class up, we went for International status to ensure certain countries could not block us. Part of International status is that the National Authorities have to accept you. This meant that Beneteau could not block the class.

As JB says its up to people what the spend their money and and as above be careful. It is sad however that people who buy in good faith may not get what they think they are getting.

David H has summed up the differences but let's not sell ourselves short. The 505 and Merlin are examples of premier classes. The have clear rules and good class associations. Everyone knows where they stand because everything is open and can be checked. This of course carries certain premiums. However, equally we have the choice of whether to drive a Kia or DB9!

Cheers
D

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jpa_wfsc
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Re: Which Singlehander?

Post by jpa_wfsc » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:49 pm

Nigel wrote:
Perhaps pendulum tests are the answer - is it the Finn that has that now?
Yes they do.

Have we yet mentioned the OK? When I was slim, and would have passed the 40Kg Pendulum test :wink: , I sailed one - great! And it sailed to its handicap against GP14's and Enterprises reasonably fairly, it seemed to me.

Now there is no way I could pass the pendulum test myself, but I'm sure the OK would suit. In fact I was trying to pursuade Matthew to find one when Rupert's Skoll Moth became available so there we are!

I raced the Skol on Sunday in a pursuit race - starting nearly first I finished nearly last - at least I beat my sons (who were in Toppers). But one more F^ to get the Moth planning I think it should have run away from most everything else there. Or of course, 40Kg less!

Even so - it was fun, intelectualy and physicaly challenging - what more could you want?

New knees, thats what!
j./

National 12 "Spider" 2523
Finn K468 'Captain Scarlet'

British Moth, 630, early 60's 'Pisces'

!!!! Not CVRDA !!!!
Comet Trio - something always ready to sail.

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Re: Which Singlehander?

Post by Rupert » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:58 pm

The HOPPLE, John, The HOPPLE! A mis-spelling of The Hoople, or so I'm told! The Topple would be more apt!
Rupert

Rod
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Re: Which Singlehander?

Post by Rod » Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:46 am

Great thread.

40 kg. still puts you in Optimist range. All other boats in discussion need at least 60 - 70 kg to at least plod upwind in a breeze.

Scow designs such as a Topper are brilliant as some of the posters have pointed out. Stable, good performance in a breeze. The British Moth is a hybrid scow (a Prius of singlehanded scowdom?) but with a tall rig, not a lightweight craft.

From a design point of view, 40 kg growing to adulthood, ... plywood scow with maybe a gunter rig that could be easily reefed for the ligthweight.

I have a sketch filed off somewhere that might fit the bill, plywood build. Would need some computer work to get it into buildable state.

Europe dinghy = DavidH is right on, but top Olympic women were sailing at least at 65-75 kg in these boats. The low rig is definitely a negative.

Someone mentioned Cadet or Mirror dinghy. Certainly a sloop rig for a lightweight makes a lot of sense since you can use a full rig in light wind and drop the jib in a breeze.

Low rider Moth. If the young can do all those super tricks on a skateboard; balance and stability shouldn't be an issue. But an Int. Moth rig is powerful and even a low rider Moth takes a certain skipper weight to get it upright after a capsize (got to drag a full batten rig and racks up.. takes some weight ... at least 65 kg.)

Bottom line - for 40 kg skipper weight sans Optimist or Topper .... Cadet or Mirror where you can adjust the sail area depending on the breeze
Rod M
Annapolis MD USA

http://www.earwigoagin.blogspot.com
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Nigel
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Re: Which Singlehander?

Post by Nigel » Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:38 pm

I may be able to offer an alternative here. My petite wife has moved on from her Concept 302 so I now need to sell it. It is a lovely little boat - Totally overengineered. GRP but with with carbon stringers and foils. Two sizes of sail.

Apparently when new they were about 4 times the price of a new topper at the time. No really a wonder that they did not catch on.

My wife weighs 45kg so I reckon weight range is from 30kg to about 70kg sensibly although I have sailed it at 120 kg. It was a bit like a submarine with a sail on but it kept going :) .

PY same as a topper.

http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/boats/dinghy/Concept-302/

Nigel

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JB9
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Re: Which Singlehander?

Post by JB9 » Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:15 am

Hi, I have sent a PM about the concept.

Thanks
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Nigel
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Re: Which Singlehander?

Post by Nigel » Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:54 pm

PMed back

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