Singlehanded challenge

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Rupert
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Re: Singlehanded challenge

Post by Rupert » Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:08 pm

A diet?!
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DavidC
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Re: Singlehanded challenge

Post by DavidC » Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:09 pm

I do think that we should be inclusive where possible and although there is a CVRDA constitution it is not a tablet of stone and can like any class rule be amended if necessary.

I would support the forming of another group for these classes and it must surely be better to have 40 boats that 20 as long as the same ethos is shared across the group. We have to be careful that we do not find ourselves in the slightly ridiculous position of accepting a very competitive Merlin but excluding a Mirror 14.

We manage out own handicaps and that will of course continue and can or should be able to deal with everything we need. If we wish to exclude SMOD's then it is a very simple matter of listing the companies we do notwish to have sailing with us. If there are a few upset Laser sailors then I am afraid so be it. They can always buy themselves something else as well.
PeterV wrote:Sorry, another point. The owner of a lost class can be allocated a PY number and race in any handicap race. He's not going to suffer like an old Finn, Merlin or 14 from being forced to race on the published PY of a modern boat, so therefore there isn't much reason for them joining the CVRDA races.
I would just pick up on Peter's point above. No one is forced to sail on the published number and the PY actually says that numbers should be adjusted for the locality etc. I realise that many clubs are lazy and cannot be bothered but it is perfectly feasible for a gropu of Merlins or Finns to sail of different numbers

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neil
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Re: Singlehanded challenge

Post by neil » Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:29 pm

No one is forced to sail on the published number and the PY actually says that numbers should be adjusted for the locality etc. I realise that many clubs are lazy and cannot be bothered but it is perfectly feasible for a gropu of Merlins or Finns to sail of different numbers

based on PeterV's article on classic Finns we race the old Finns on a different PY to the modern boats. tin rig and dacron sail v carbon rig and film sail

This is the same as Flying 15s and Merlins - the class association have suggested different PYs baed on age or sail number. It's then up the club (or individual members to petition the club) to accept a revised PY for an older boat.
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Re: Singlehanded challenge

Post by Rupert » Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:35 am

David C, the Mirror 14 would fit the criteria of a Lost Class perfectly, and would be welcomed. A Laser2, for example, doesn't. I quite agree about us needing to look into the problem of out classed post 1965 designed boats not being looked after by their class associations. Maybe the lost classes bit should be developed along those lines, slightly to one side of the "core business" of the cvrda? And maybe the "singlehanded Challenge" idea should morph into a "Lost and abandoned class challenge", running along side a cvrda event?
Supporting lost and "abandoned" class boats under one umbrella would leave the cvrda constitution well alone as something that works very well for the boats it is looking after, and yet open up an avenue on the water that aleady exists on the website for people like Nessa with old non qualifying boats from classes which have radically changed their brief.
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Ed
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Re: Singlehanded challenge

Post by Ed » Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:42 am

mmmmmmmmmmmm

Yes, something funny may be going on.

I posted yesterday and that has got lost as well.

I think I was largely agreeing with David.

10 years may well be a good time to re-address some of these questions and then stick to that for another 10.

I agree with David's aversion to SMODs although concede Ruperts point about the Firefly originally being a SMOD, although it hardly is at this point of its life.

Personally, I am not so against the idea of known 'exceptions'. We have always stuck closely to the rule (Pre-65 + lost classes) but this has always left some classes out that really felt like they should be in.

The obvious two for this are the Marauder and the Phantom.

The Marauder Class Assoc even asked us to put on their nats as a last shot attempt for them to keep the association going and we said no. A decision which at the time seemed wrong and now in retrospect seems completely contrary to the aims of the association.

The old Phantoms are so completely outclassed within their own class, that they effectively have no racing opportunities at all. The Phantom association is trying hard to get over that. But they are finding (as many classes have done before) that providing a 'classic' wing within a class is really not that easy. The Classic Phantoms totally fit the ethos of the CVRDA and it just seems churlish to not allow them to race with us.

As for the others:

Javelin Would have no problems with them being included
Miracle Forgot that they weren't included
Streaker Was quite sure they were
Wanderer spose so.....although I would most probably vote against if it was an individual choice.

As for the compromise:

"The CVRDA is 10 years old old next year. Each 10th anniversary, the bar goes 'up' by 1/2 the distance - 5 years. Changing 1965 to 1970 and ignoring the SMODs would actually make quite a bit of sense - looked at from one perspective!"

Fits my perspective, broadly and any rule that allows the Marauder, Streaker and Phantom, but disallows the Laser, would certainly gain my interest.

But I don't have the same worry about 'exceptions'. I would quite happily have the rule remain the same and then add a list of exceptions - which were boats designed after 1965, that still stuck truly to the CVRDA ethos.

For me it would be a shortish list, but certainly have: Marauder, Phantom, Streaker on it and arguably Miracle, Javelin and Wanderer.

Cheers

eib
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Re: Singlehanded challenge

Post by Silverwood » Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:51 am

Hi Ed
Phantom was designed in 1971 (see below - from Phantom website) so a change to 1970 wouldnt include it. Wood, non self draining Phantoms with a tin rig....a "lost class" possibly? I believe the "over 25 yrs old rule" would also rule out GRP ones and Claridge self drainers. The Claridge boats were works of art but completely outperformed the older boats, although today are themselves outclassed.....

"The Phantom was designed by Paul Wright and Brian Taylor in 1971. They wanted to produce a single-hander that was exciting to sail, manageable and at the same time affordable to build." (Extracted from Phantom website).
It does use a Fireball main, which was pre 1965... (!).

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Re: Singlehanded challenge

Post by Nigel » Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:53 pm

Hi all,

there does seem to be some consensus that we do something to include these boats and the idea of a new wing also seems to have some support as a way to do it. The next question is how do we need to implement it? Does it need a formalish vote at a formalish AGM? Can we just have a poll on the forum and ask someone to document the proposal in more detail for a final vote? I am happy to try to list the key points from all the above an put it into some sort of overall proposal (or happy to let someone else do that :)) but we need to know what to do with it when that is done.

Any "constitutional" thoughts on the way forward?

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neil
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Re: Singlehanded challenge

Post by neil » Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:03 pm

Personally I would not like to see another wing, we should try and uses the exisitng ones - this could mean tweaking the Cats and Lost Classes and the Old boats. Changing the Old boats from 1965 to say 1971 would be simple, possibly with a SMOD exclusion

I would recommend keeping any changes as simple as possible.

As far as any changes of the constituion are concerned

Any alteration of these articles shall be passed at an Annual General Meeting by a majority of two-thirds at least of the members present and voting. Notice of motion of any of these articles shall be given by email or in writing to the Secretary at least twenty-eight days before any Annual General Meeting and any notice thereof shall be given by the Secretary at least fourteen days before such meeting

With there being emphasis put on the Phantom I would recommend that the Phantom Class association is consulted over this as this may attract more members and especially as there is discusion area on their forum (http://www.phantomclass.org.uk/Forum/in ... ?board=7.0) about Classic Phantoms
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Re: Singlehanded challenge

Post by Rupert » Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:37 pm

I can't see any reason why we can't experiment with the lost classes wing a little bit early in the year, see what sort of reaction we get on the water, see how it fits together with the 3 other wings, and then, if it seems to be working, and the numbers taking advantage make it worth it, put a change of wording for the lost classes wing to the AGM? I cannot see us being swamped with boats that have been outclassed in their fleet, or overcome with the brashness of the owners...after all, they would have to be interested enough in classic boats to have found the cvrda, would't they?
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Re: Singlehanded challenge

Post by Nigel » Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:24 pm

Hi Rupert,

Sounds good. Let me see if I have understood everything - extend the lost classes wing to include those boats now outclassed in their own classes because of significant developments (i.e not because they are just crappy examples or badly sailed) - that should take care of the SMODs. Do we want a design date cut off of say 1974 or do we want some other criteria for classes(e.g. at the acceptance of the committee, vote on the forum) I guess we would need some sort of review process anyway to judge the first criterion but we could have the usual approach of beating it to death on the forum :) .

A test event or two also sounds like a good idea.

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Ed
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Re: Singlehanded challenge

Post by Ed » Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:45 pm

That sounds like the beginning of a very slippery slope

eib
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Re: Singlehanded challenge

Post by Rupert » Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:56 pm

? Why be that Ed? All I'm suggesting is a way of including those boats that you had listed in our events without having to change the main point of the cvrda? I don't really think it will make any practical difference - if Nessa had brought Phantom 88 along to a meeting last year, would she have been turned away, or would we have all admired the boat, wondered how it had stayed together all these years and been happy for her to race? By setting out with the aim of keeping the Vintage, Classic and Old fleets exactly as they are, we really wouldn't be on a slope at all, would we? The "lost classes" bit of the cvrda has never had much done to it in reality, and if the Tonic qualifies for that branch, and the Pisces, then the company of the odd Phantom or even Streaker isn't going to upset the apple cart, and will expand the lost class fleet a little (ie maybe more than 1...). I don't think we need worry about being inundated with entries to such an extent we can't cope?
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Re: Singlehanded challenge

Post by alan williams » Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:18 pm

Hi All
to act with out a majority of votes from an AGM prposal would I believe not only unconstitutional but also illegal. How would the RYA feel about this. I would question the need to accommodated these classes anyway. Lost Classes is just that, class which no longer have an association. The Phantom could easily be incorporated into their own class Association by putting up their own prizes with their own race series. This is something that has been carried out very successfully by a number of classes. Do not streach the CVRDA rules without approval from the AGM.

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Re: Singlehanded challenge

Post by Ed » Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:32 pm

Oh, sorry....I am not that against it....just aware that one is possibly opening a weir-gate.

Would we of allowed Nessa to race? I do hope so, I would of supported it, but not everyone would.

As I have said, I would support some way of allowing Marauders, Phantoms and Streakers......but am just very wary of extending the rule to allow 'all' boats up to 1971 as it will only be a while before someone says "Why don't you allow my 25 year old Laser"

The question is....on what basis do you create some rule to allow this?

Do you create a clever rule (as we originally thought "Over 25 years old from class established before 1965 was) or do we use some far more arbitary way (CVRDA includes this list of classes......) or a mixture of both "Over 25, class before 65 plus these classes".

In the end, it is all about the 'ethos' of the CVRDA.

I would never want to turn away someone with a classic boat (of any age or class) which when we looked at it we all agreed this was a 'classic'. We have happily bent the rules in the past and I have not been against this as long as it was being done within the character and ethos of the association. We have had under 25 year old boats race (Dave in very modern Merlin) without it worrying us, but there have been other times when people have manipulated the rules for the benefit of pot-hunting that has caused us offence....and hefty use of handicapping to sort out (with some bad feelings).

So, In the end I want a system that allows everyone with an interest in classic boats to race 'old' & 'classic' boats together with some level of fairness. But to prevent others spoiling it by trying to use the borders of what is acceptable to gain an advantage and win. Which is just out of the ethos and not playing cricket.

cheers

eib
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Re: Singlehanded challenge

Post by Rupert » Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:59 pm

Alan, please read my post again. I have never said I want to change anything outside of an AGM, and within the AGM I have no wish to change anything to do with the 3 wings that have been the mainstay of the cvrda for 10 years. However, the "lost classes" side of things has been pretty much dormant in terms of sailing, but not on the forum. It turns out that we have some forum users who have old boats of classes which have associations, but who feel we would do a better job of putting on some enjoyable and fair racing for them. How is this a problem, if we run something alongside the other 3 wings for them (and for the already qualifying lost classes) at an event to see what happens? I cannot see how that goes against the ethos of the cvrda? I'll even supply some separate prizes, and if necessary there could be a separate start, though I would suspect the small numbers involved would mean the racing on the water would be more fun off 1 start.
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