RULES - Which are the most important?

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Michael Brigg
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Re: RULES - Which are the most important?

Post by Michael Brigg » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:39 pm

Nessa Said:-
Unfortunately they were Canadians in Canada and I felt I would have had little or no chance had I attempted to protest.
In the circumstances you should have watched a film called "Deliverance" for guidance!

Or another dream sequence, Nessa (AKA Kiera Knightly) berates DavidH (dressed as Captain Jack Sparrow ) about the CVRDA Code. "Well anyone knows theyr'e more like guidelines really!"

In the social sports where the game is an excuse for mixing afterwards, there are often instances where, in the lower echelons of the sport the referee is not only blind, deaf, incontinent or otherwise afflicted during the game but also a jolly nice bloke and we all buy him a beer afterwards because if he hadnt put his neck on the block we would not have had a game.

So, here's to crusty incompetant Race officers. Long may they keep the flag flying, especially if no-one else will.

And Rupert said:-
the very nature of competitive people means that they will push what is allowed in a rule until it snaps
"Play the referee" and "play to the whistle" are two basic skills that school children are taught. It's not about unsportsmanlike behaviour but aknowledgment that he, like me is only human.

Unsportsmanlike is not kicking the ball out of play for an injured man, and not throwing it back to the oposition on the restart. In my opinion diving in the penalty area is unsportsmanlike, :x but on the other hand exploiting a weakness in the opposition is fair. :twisted:

If the other helm has a foul temper and is an arrogant s*d, then it is there to be exploited. There are all sorts of irritating things you can do, including sometimes "pushing rules" to a limit, but if you get caught on a port and starboard or luffing incident though you have only yourself to blame. The art is to irritate the s**t out of him and put him off his game. If someone is trying to thump you he's taking his eye off the ball. Just keep cool and be sure he doesnt get a clean shot on you. 8)

As AK said:-
"In order to finish first you must first finish"!
(From Graham Hill, Listed in the January 1997 Rowing Magazine as the World Motor racing champion and a member of London Rowing Club and father of Damon, who won "BBC Sportsman of the year" for not winning the formula 1 championship in the year that Steve Redgrave won his 4th Gold Medal (the only Gold GB won in that Games too!)

It is often up to the protestant boat to have decided if there is sufficient gain from attempting to create a penalty incident and for the defendant boat to have decided if a penalty (or DQ) is worth the risk, but once again, if the risk has been taken, then take it like a man if you miscalculated the competance (or otherwise) of the officials. :oops:

One of the delights of club racing can be local knowledge. That includes "local rules." eg. "Never call Starboard on Lord Henry." I've not yet read Shakewell Afloat but I'm sure he cites a few examples. There is a certain skill to coming out on top from a hugely biased line, or winning a race without any beating.

I have reached a stage were I find the pleasure of an open meeting is sampling a new brewery, and seeing different scenery. I sail infrequently enough to be envious of the man in the boat, because he's out there doing it, :D while I'm just watching. :(
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Re: RULES - Which are the most important?

Post by Michael Brigg » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:20 pm

David H said:-
in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king
It's a quote that needs a little consideration because all is not as it seems:-

In the land of the blind the one eyed man thinks he is King.

In this hyperthetical land his subjects all have highly developed senses. Touch, smell, hearing, memory and position proprioception. The one eyed King on the other hand has only his disabled and limited vision. The multi-talented and adapted population are easily able to outsmart the limited weapons of a tyrant that are poorly designed for their environment.

This can be used as an allegory of why in 200years the West has not yet successfully subjugated Afganistan

In another film, "Wait until it gets dark," (an absolute thriller from days of real black and white movies,) we see the weak and feeble blind girl overcome her would be killer by the simple expedient of smashing all the lights in the apartment.

A rule bully in a fleet who are racing for the pleasure of a level playing field experience will soon find he is always being tacked on, blanketed or otherwise inconvenienced, and will always have to find his own trolley at the end of the race.
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Re: RULES - Which are the most important?

Post by davidh » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:00 am

see.... I was right all along.

"quoth the Raven" was JUST the right epitaph for the man!

D
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Re: RULES - Which are the most important?

Post by JimC » Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:42 am

Nessa wrote:I'm fairly sure I read not long ago about a port tacker calling starboard on a beginner only then to be thrown out for his misdemeanor.
Indeed so. Its in the ISAF Case Book. The case concludes:-

"A boat that deliberately hails ‘Starboard’ when she knows she is on port
tack has not acted fairly and has broken rule 2. The protest committee
might also consider taking action under rule 69."

This means that the *minimum* penalty applicable is a DND - a disqualification that may not be discarded from the series. Greater penalties available, should the PC feel the offence significantly grave and do take action under rule 69, go through disqualification from the whole series right up to a report to the National Authority who have the power to impose a ban from competitive sailing completely if they consider it appropriate...

And under rule 69 the beginner is not required to protest - the incident just has to be brought to the Protest Committee's attention.

====================

And yes, in the country of the blind the one eyed man falls off the side of the cliff after dark because there are no lights...

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Re: RULES - Which are the most important?

Post by Ancient Geek » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:04 pm

I find little or nothing to disagree with any of the posts and anecdotes on this subject I think what worries many of us who hark back to 60's racing is the proliferation of "The Professional Foul" gladly this has not yet come down to national level in the UK, though it's been around a while internationaly some of us were shocked by Ben Ainlies tactics at the start of the last race in the Laser class in the 2000 Olympics glady though all classes at 2008 (Perhaps because of intense TV Coverage.) were copybook stuff just wily stalking. Legal these things may be;legitimate maybe; but the way we want to race? Not in this mans ARmy.
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Ed
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Re: RULES - Which are the most important?

Post by Ed » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:33 pm

But you do see it happen.

Club sailors follow international events and see Ben do that....and then turn up at club racing with the same attitude.

As you say, It 'may' be right in international racing....but I would find it ungentlemanly in a club race.

But we started this thread by stressing the importance of the 'rules' and the want to stick to them.

Do we have to say, the rules 'should' be interpreted one way at international level and another way at club level?? Surely not.

But there are still rule-bullies about....and different classes use the rules differently. The worst clashes of rule-interpretation happen in mixed classes rather than single-fleet.

I can off my head think of 3 times in last few years (twice in Firefly and once in 1952 IC), when sailing in a mixed fleet with lasers, I have been intentionally hit, with little warning (once by having someone tack onto me and twice by luffing up on a reach). In all 3 times, had I had any prior warning, by simply being asked to go 'up' a bit.....or given a touch more room/time/space to tack (need it in the IC) I would of happily of done so, but they chose to use the rules, which I would agree in each time were on their side to knoble me.

My point is not to say that I thought this was 'unfair' or to show-up my pathetic sailing to leave myself open to these offences in the first place, but simply to show how that was quite normal and acceptable sailing within the 'Laser' fleet (who we were racing with, but not against), where the racing is very close, the boats very manoeuvrable andthe boats plastic. But it seemed out of place within the rest of the handicap fleet.

But I also agree with AG, rule bullies do tend to catch it more than others. I pretty much always try to race around others as much as possible (think it is faster....especially in IC or Jollyboat), but if someone calls on me 'for the sake of it' rather than any real need, I tend to become rather boulshy and try my damdest to get in his/her way as much as possible.

I am often impressed by how some hot sailors seem to manage to sail within a fleet without ever coming close to anyone, till they are ahead....and then they are gone anyway (Dave Rollinson comes to mind).

cheers

eib
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Re: RULES - Which are the most important?

Post by davidh » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:44 pm

AG,

INteresting that you highlight our multi medal winner. At both the last Finn Gold Cup and the Olympics, the one thing that showed the clear difference between the GBR boat and the others, was the willingness and skill to do what was required to win. At that level it can be taken for granted that the sailors are talented dinghy racers...... but (taking the gold Cup as the prime example) hounding a boat, harrying him even, to the point that the leader going into the medal race doesn't even make the podium, well, that is life at this rarified level. If he hadn't done it to them, they'd have done it to him!

In the end it comes down to the level at which you sail; the sort of tactics used at the Gold Cup would soon find you a Billynomates if used at the Club level.

When I went with Pitman to do battle with Johnny Foreigner at the 505 European at Kiel, we named the boat 'Aggression' and had matching sweat shirts made. The boat was aptly named! The French Champion, Marcel Buffet, said that he could hear us as he rounded the leeward mark, even though by then we were well up the beat. But, with the exception of the Bojsen Mullers who wisely keep out of the fray, the top 10 was a hard, competitive place to be, no quarter was given and prisoners not taken. As always, there is a time and place for these things. But towards a beginner or novice, this really is a case of never!

I'm sure you recall the front runner in the Merlins who, following a very bad start and first beat, was trying to carve his way back through the fleet.
As he hoisted his kite at the top mark, a 'back of the middle fleet' sailor, who hadn't hoisted, luffed hard, there was contact and in those days, that meant home for an early bath.

In the bar that evening the front runner was well pissed off that,as he repeatedly described, " a rabbit" had put him out - how dare he!!!. I seem to recall he did not get much of an audience!

D
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Re: RULES - Which are the most important?

Post by JB9 » Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:14 pm

Much of what has been written is the reason that I tend to concentrate on low key racing and for a few years before that rarely raced at all.

Under the new rules, I seem to recall, there is only 1 instance when hailing is mandatory or maybe 2?
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Re: RULES - Which are the most important?

Post by neil » Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:44 pm

Had a similar situation to Ed with a Laser at this years Goodacre, had a ringer turn up using every trick in the book and he ended up being sailed off the course both by me and then another Laser. Both of us were well within the rules and were just making tactical decisions.


The thing I have the biggest issue with with the use of shouting UP, UP on the start line. Most times this is done not due to a right of way, but out of intimidation, forcing a gap and sheer bloody mindedness. I have a partial solution for this, an elderly Flying15 already with lots of scratches which will be out for a odd series this year.
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Re: RULES - Which are the most important?

Post by Ancient Geek » Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:52 pm

The Dasnes in the 505 is how Danes race which is at least one reason why Denmark punches so far above its weight in Internationa results incidentaly the Danes simply could not understand the protesting that went on after the 49 Medal race.
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Re: RULES - Which are the most important?

Post by roger » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:38 pm

Ed wrote:
I am often impressed by how some hot sailors seem to manage to sail within a fleet without ever coming close to anyone, till they are ahead....and then they are gone anyway (Dave Rollinson comes to mind).

cheers

eib
Totally agree Ed. At the Birkett Trophy a couple of years ago Kit Stenhouse was well up the fleet as she usually is. She was coming back down the lake going well and a Wayfarer at the back of the fleet called starboard on her. Why ? I dont know he had nothing to gain and she had loads to lose. Did she get upset? No she just said thankyou in a cheery voice and carried on as if nothing had happened.
Great attitude and I am sure it makes a serious contribution to her placings.
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Re: RULES - Which are the most important?

Post by Nessa » Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:20 pm

Yet another anecdote from Kingston. In one of the crucial final day races my rival was way ahead of me after the first beat and two reaches, so I was surprised to see her loitering at the leeward mark. At first I thought she was in trouble, but no she was deliberately backing her sail so that she could wait for me and then cover me up the beat - perfectly legitimate, but she had been sitting there so long had she sailed on she could have easily got well away from me.

I had been taking note of her sailing style all week (of course) and noticed that upwind she sailed quite free, so as we started the supposed covering duel I pinched really hard to the extent that I was soon able to tack inside her and had I wanted to, I could have covered her. As it was, I also knew her upwind tactics were unreliable so I went my own merry way and ended up well ahead of her at the windward mark. I felt wonderful. And then they abandoned the race...

The moral of the story for me is that using the rules and attempting to use tight boat on boat tactics will only work if your sailing is up to it. And of course, like in any battle of wits, know your enemy!
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Re: RULES - Which are the most important?

Post by Nigel » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:18 pm

Hi all,

I would just like to make known before Whitefriars that:

a) I am a novice and
b) I am changing my name to Lord Henry.

I hope I will be treated accordingly :) .

Nigel

In the land of the blind there is never much on TV

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Re: RULES - Which are the most important?

Post by Ancient Geek » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:06 pm

A bit of a long one this responding to several people in a considered recovering from man-flu sort of way!
Nigel:
Aka Lord Henry I hope they do treat a newcomer well, no reason to suppose they will not
though remember Lord Henry was the chief protagonist in The Picture of Dorian Gray! If you couldn't watch TV you couldn't watch DAVE and what apart from listening to Mozart would there be left to live for!
Nessa:
Sitting on a boat upwind slowing it down even flapping sails is an old tactic oft used in University Team Racing in my day as you say not hard to get out of sail fast a free through the dirt and then high and come underneath them even end up ahead and to windward. Harder these days in modern boats and rigs where speeds and pointing are more level.
Roger:
Your friend should be looking and planning ahead, adjusting course accordingly, sailing has been described as chess or snooker on the water which it is as well as being a drag race so think and plan several moves ahead, running or reaching through a fleet beating is not hard but does require looking around and adjusting course.
Neil:
UP UP UP[/youtube] I’ll plead guilty why do we do it? NOT to force a place but to stop those who’s time on distance is bad and arrive on the line early and start peeling off to leeward
Crashing into to those of us who have judged things rather bertter.
JB9:
Every sympathy that’s why I race almost only abroad.
ED:
I’m like minded, so much these days like automated supermarket check outs is designed to make us feel stupid and inferior, at least if not designed that’s the result!
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Re: RULES - Which are the most important?

Post by Nessa » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:18 pm

Ancient Geek wrote: Nessa:
Sitting on a boat upwind slowing it down even flapping sails is an old tactic oft used in University Team Racing in my day as you say not hard to get out of sail fast a free through the dirt and then high and come underneath them even end up ahead and to windward. Harder these days in modern boats and rigs where speeds and pointing are more level.
Well, we managed this one a few years back when a ticket to the Barcelona pre-Olympics was at stake - our adversary was a Cambridge team racer, but also inclined to pinch (again, know your enemy) so we bust through underneath her - very satisfying indeed.

I then dislocated my shoulder in Medemblik so had to take several months off. No pre-Olympics for me :cry:

Back to the rules though, I do actually try in general to avoid trouble. Even though I have done lots of racing I never feel that confident about my knowledge of the rules and I'd far rather get my results on the water rather than in the protest room.
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