New Constitution - Dates for Eligibility

[Ed]

To recap:

Please do keep your answers tightly on-topic. This time, I will move any off-topic answers to new threads so that we can keep the discussion exactly on the possible wording for new constitution.

A quick reminder, that I don't mind leading this discussion, but I don't have any more real authority to come up with a new wording than you do. I am currently an honorary member of the CVRDA, who last year was co-opted onto the committee. As an honorary member, I don't think I will even get to vote on changes to the constitution.

So if you think you can do better.....go for it!

However we do need to get all suggested changes to the constitution in writing to the committee before 28 days before the AGM, so that they can be voted for at the AGM. There will be no or minimal discussion of the proposals at the meeting as it is presumed that all this has been done here on the forum. It will just be a simple vote - 'yes' or 'no'.

I have split these suggestions into two for the moment. One to discuss the boundary dates for inclusion in the CVRDA and another to discuss the wording that describes the 'wings'.

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Boats are eligible to race with the CVRDA if they were built before <Date one> from a class established before <Date two> or from a class voted by CVRDA members as a 'classic' class.


<Date one> 1984 (in 2009) and to be raised by 1 year every 5 years, so 1985 in 2014.

<Date two> 1965

Classes accepted as being 'classic' must be voted in by AGM with a 2/3rd majority. These should be boats that although not designed before 1965, still appear to be within the ethos of the CVRDA.


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OK, lets discuss this:

All dates are possibly moveable.

I feel that the core date of 1965 is integral to what the CVRDA does and the boats that it is 'about'. I don't think this has changed. If we change the date to 1970 or 1975, you will gain a few classes that we 'might' want, but at the cost of taking in many that we don't want.

Having thought long and hard about this, I think the only way around this is by use of a 'fudge-factor'..Pre-65 and a few agreed exceptions - Marauder, Phantom etc.

But....I know there are others here who simply do not want this date changed and feel that including these boats will lead to dilution of the 'ethos'

There is no doubt that the 25 year old rule is going to bring in problems.....(personally I feel that the danger from this is VERY over-estimated, but I can see the point). Extending it to 30 years will to an extent just bring back the problem in 5 years. I like the idea of holding it at what we currently have....and then only extending it 1 year in every 5. What do others think?

There could be an argument to being tougher. Make the cut-off earlier? 1980? we can always grandfather any boats that have raced with us in last 5 years, that find themselves suddenly out of class.

There could be an argument to being less tough. Just keep the 25 years or 30 years and adjust the wings to provide good racing within the class. The whole reason for having this rule was to encourage boats to come and race. If the new rule prevented too many boats from coming. I don't think I would support it.

Any way,

what do you think?

cheers

eib

[loisbarlow]

I think that you have it about right Ed. The 1965 rule is easy for everyone to understand. I think you have a hit upon a neat solution to the age of boats eligible - movig on 1 year in every 5 seems about right.

[chris]

I would support the 25year date and the slower rate of increase +1year every 5 yrs.
Support keeping 1965 date of classes. (am thinking about allowing the committee some discretion about allowing some other 'in the spirit' classes in)

ps Ed ...don't be modest it wasn't just Hon Membership -We elected you Hon President if I remember correctly, Whoops, sorry, off topic now.

[Nessa]

Even though it stuffs my phantom, I also prefer the 1965 cut off. I suppose it has something to do with the types of boats built and designed after this, due to 'advances' in construction methods. I would like to see some kind of fudge factor allow in boats like my phantom that have stayed authentic to the original design, but I don't see how that can be incorporated without accusations of favouritism.

[JimC]

Bother, I just interpreted "yes as it currently stands" to "as per current rules". Please transfer my vote for the first option to the last one - no change to current rules...

[Ed]

Jim,

I set this poll up differently....

you should be able to change it yourself....If not tell me and I will try and see why you can't.

I did it like this in case anybody wanted to change their minds due to discussion etc

cheers

eib

[Pat]

I thought I was happy with the one year every five limit increase but then put it into practical terms.

Although I sail a 40 year old Merlin I also have a 20 year old one - pre Canterbury Tales and already outclassed by them but just too new for a vintage Merlin handicap. Theorectically I could sail this with cvrda in five years time, but if the increase was one year every five years the boat would be 45 years old before she qualifies and by then most 25 to 45 years old boats will have become firewood or plant pots

A lot of decent boats could be lost in that time if there isn't suitable racing for them. Clubs don't usually provide age related handicaps so newer boats are bought and older ones sold on or delapidate in the dinghy park. Let's stick to being inclusive and keep the 25 year old rule but be more draconian with handicaps.

[davidh]

Pat,

I'm almost with you on this BUT......

There is no use crying over spilt milk now, so the fact that my attempts to 'highlight' the issue over how the rules could be subject to abuse (by me waiting 18 months - or worser still, turning up this year with a Parker 25 Carbon hulled 505) went wrong is probably down to how I did things, rather than the what it was that I did! Terrible english but I think the message is clear - and for them what I upset - sorry, as the say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The fact remains though Pat, that in keeping just to 25 years the system could be open to abuse sometime in the next decade - which is when things in the bigger world of dinghy sailing will start to unravel all the more.

The '1 in 5' advance is only a suggestion - maybe even ' 1 in 3' - or even just 1 in 2 would work, Do the '1 in 2' and in the next decade the limit goes out from 25 to 30 - for that is the practical result of what will occur and that may be no bad thing. So come 2019, you can have a boat from 1989.... still just short of the skiff revolution.

In the end though the 'do nothing' option is scary - for though I was only trying to raise the storm in debate terms, someone will do this 'for real' - then we really will be in the clag!

It's not just a problem with the Merlins, but the 12s and 14s too.......

But hey ho.....still want to have a quick shot in 'Love over Gold' and I promise not to break it!

D

[Pat]

Well there's almost a chance at the current progress rate that Goldie will be on the water by 2019
One in two may work better though.

[roger]

Pat,

I'm almost with you on this BUT......

There is no use crying over spilt milk now, so the fact that my attempts to 'highlight' the issue over how the rules could be subject to abuse (by me waiting 18 months - or worser still, turning up this year with a Parker 25 Carbon hulled 505) went wrong is probably down to how I did things, rather than the what it was that I did! Terrible english but I think the message is clear - and for them what I upset - sorry, as the say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The fact remains though Pat, that in keeping just to 25 years the system could be open to abuse sometime in the next decade - which is when things in the bigger world of dinghy sailing will start to unravel all the more.

The '1 in 5' advance is only a suggestion - maybe even ' 1 in 3' - or even just 1 in 2 would work, Do the '1 in 2' and in the next decade the limit goes out from 25 to 30 - for that is the practical result of what will occur and that may be no bad thing. So come 2019, you can have a boat from 1989.... still just short of the skiff revolution.

In the end though the 'do nothing' option is scary - for though I was only trying to raise the storm in debate terms, someone will do this 'for real' - then we really will be in the clag!

It's not just a problem with the Merlins, but the 12s and 14s too.......

But hey ho.....still want to have a quick shot in 'Love over Gold' and I promise not to break it!

D

Ok short but on topic. I am in favour of the slow moving one in five rolling date and if we do get the odd bandit turn up then I am sure the handicappers can deal with.
I seem to remember David H telling me of an I14 hull just 25yrs old with very moderrn rig going to turn up at Netley to win all the prizes(such as they are) and they were told the handicapping system would make it quite difficult. They didnt turn up.

Wonder if they would have beaten Strang?

What I am trying to say is our handcap system can quite easily make it difficult for the "outside the ethos of the cvrda" boats to keep coming back.
After all the prize is an old brass cleat and a bottle of wine. Hardly a mug for the trophy caabinet.

Ed if i am to far off topic chuck it out.

[Ed]

I am not against changing or tightening the rules if it makes our racing better or safeguards what the CVRDA members want to do.

I hope that is shown by the work that I have started to do on this....

But....

I am still not as totally convinced as some others about the urgency of the requirement to change, or the belief that the current system is so totally broke.

The 25 year rule was a pragmatic decision made 10 years ago to extend our fleet beyond the pre-65 boats. I think it has worked well. I can see that there could be an issue in the next 10 years....but still....I am not sure about this being an enormous or immediate problem.

For one thing, (and this is me, I talk for myself, not for the CVRDA, but I think I share with others), I just love sailing old boats....I am not that bothered about winning at all and being that my interest is primarily with the classic and vintage boats, I am really not that bothered about who wins the 'old' wing....or who wins overall. I could most probably tell you most of the 'classic' wing winners at our nats since we started, but have really not much idea who the 'old' wing winner was.....except it was one for two years running by an Osprey (which I will come back to).

Lets say in a couple of years an epoxy-carbon-foam 505 comes legitimately to race. It gets handicapped to hell, but still it wins the 'old' wing and is overall winner. So? it doesn't really make any difference to me or the core 'classic' and 'vintage' wings. So maybe it would be a problem....maybe we would need to address it....but it wouldn't be the end of the world as we know it.

The other thing that rankles, is the presumption that this has never happened before....and if it did, we wouldn't know what to do...or be able to deal with it.

I know I have already told this tale.....but let me say it again as it shows both how it works....and that it does. We only opened racing up to over-25 year old boats to extend our core-fleet to encourage Roadford members to sail at early nats. In one of those first years, we asked a very nice wooden 'racing dinghy' how old his boat was. He hadn't come to race, he was just there for holidays I guess, he wasn't a CVRDA member. He asked why and we explained about the CVRDA and said if his boat was over 25 years old, he could race with us. He came back and said - yes, fine it was over 25 years old and he was in. We didn't bother to check - we took him at his word. He won the 'old' wing that year. He came back the next year and won the old wing again. I think he may well have been overall winner as well for one of those years. To be honest, I am not bothered - I do remember that this was the time when the big battle in the classic fleet was between Andy Hayes and Dave Rollinson in the Peggies.

Anyway, in the third year of him coming, we did do a little research at which point we discovered that even in that 3rd year, he was still not 25 years old yet!!

We could of turned him away, but it was a beautiful boat, he was a past winner....He was given the handicap we honestly thought appropriate. He declined to race, we returned his entry fee.

This was the first time this had happened and we had a real good think about what we learnt from this. Although we had not ever considered it before, we then came up with the basic concept, which holds to this day - that any boat 'just 25' years old is looked at very closely by the handicapers and it is our normal practice to give it a 'punitive' handicap for the first couple of events till we reckon we are happy with the handicap. If we think it has been chosen in a 'pot-hunting' way, then again we will be harsh. Since that first time, we talk to the owners of any boats that have worried us on this score and explain our reservations and have never had anybody complain.

If anybody else turns up with a boat that is inside our rules (or in the past - it has been close to rules, but in-ethos) we would let it race, but warn the owner that the handicap was likely to be a bit 'sharp'.

This has always sorted out the problem in the past and I don't know why it wouldn't now?

If the handicapping is working well (does it ever?) then a pot-bandit, should be looking for a pre-65 boat and retro-fitting wooden mast and cotton sails. A just 25 year old carbon-epoxy-foam boat should be allowed in, but they should have to work very VERY hard to win.

Finally.....

the cut-off date can get as close to the introduction of 'skiffs' as it likes, but the current rules are never going to allow a skiff inside the CVRDA except for those within pre-65 dev classes.

As for 1 in 5....or 1 in 2...or any other figures, nothing is set. Thank you Pat for your opinion - what do others think?

[JimC]

The fact remains though Pat, that in keeping just to 25 years the system could be open to abuse sometime in the next decade - which is when things in the bigger world of dinghy sailing will start to unravel all the more.

The more I think about it I think "what abuse". Consider a supposely hundred year old boat, that actually has had just about every piece of timber replaced in overhauls/ restorations in the last fifteen years. Give her a carbon mast and latest spec sails and modern gear. This is in all senses but the "spiritual" a non CVRDA boat. But would you want to ban the Rater Vagabond if she came to one of our events? I ****y hope not.

I think we're being like horses shying at imaginary fears... If winning our events somehow gets so prestigious that there's a problem deal with it then, but at the moment you get far more kudos and status for finishing towards the back of the pack at our events with something really special in terms of finish, workmanship and interest than you do by winnning. I think our ethos is genuinely not so much about winning but that the best way to have fun with old boats is by racing them.

[Brookesy]

As I am sure some of you are aware FD GBR350 Superdocious is eligible as an Old Class boat, she was a pathfinder, built with carbon kevlar with honeycombe nomex/alloy core and was completed in late '83 reputed to be the most expensive dinghy built in its day. I have kept her as close to original as possible, and apart from modern string instead of wire on the drums the rig is as it was with alloy mast and dacron sails, my only major change is a carbon boom and spinny poles. I did not buy her to be a CVRDA bandit but I like to think it would be good to do the odd event with her for fun.
My point is the construction should not elimimate a boat should it? I do not sail to win but to enjoy myself, bring on the handicapper and make it a level playing field but do not turn boats away without good reason.

[Rupert]

The whole point of the cvrda was that construction would not be a factor. I won the old fleet (and was 2nd overall) in a GRP minsail that as far as I was concerned, was exactly the sort of boat the old fleet should be attracting. A design classic, too new for the classic fleet. Never mind what she was built from. Surely the FD we are taling about fits into that catagory almost exactly?
If there are worries about the overall prize, start the Old fleet 5 minutes after the others, so that there is no overall prize. Have 3 winners for the traveller trophy results. No need then to change any rules on 25 years old (which is nice and simple) no need to set up a ORDA, and the Old wing can grow to its hearts content and only give the cvrda more boats and better racing.

[Brookesy]

Sounds pretty sensible to me Rupert.