Marauder, Minisail and ???

[davidh]

Jim,
maybe but maybe not. If you examine the waterline profile of the M14, you will find that you have a section not far removed from the triangular shaped identified by Frank Bethwaite as the route to boatspeed. Peter Mile hit on this shape and it would be well nigh another 20 years before Phil Morrison produced another UK (stress the UK - you're right about the dearth of UK dinghy designs post the Fireball and Topper) hull shape that got anywhere near this.

In some ways, the M14 could have been let down by the rig as the lower aspect set up, with the large overlapping genoa, may not be as good in some circumstances as the high aspect main. Where you are right is on the boat representing the death knell for 'Bob the builder'.....

Why would anyone want an M14 instead of a Fireball? Simple. Ian Ridge took a few weeks out of Contender building (he'd just done another World Championship winning boat for John Hardman) to build a pair of composite M14s. Properly built, super stiff, fitted out as you would have done a 505 and a great set of Banks sails.

The result was a boat that was the equal - in terms on the sailing experience offered, of just about anything out there (well superior to the Hornet...Fireball and 470) - though I stress this was in terms of the sailing 'experience'.

What happened next was so wrong.....but go wrong it did and a very good (though not great) boat joined the ranks of extinct classes.

It will, I am sure, happen again!

D

[JohnK]

OK, I know this is about the Mirror14/Marauder, but I thought this 1967 article about the Mirror 16 from Design magazine might be of interest.

http://vads.ahds.ac.uk/diad/article.php ... e=d.223.29

John

[alan williams]

Hi Dave
I've aready said my piece about the state of the hornet class,RIP.
Al

[davidh]

Al,

you know it

I know it

I've no doubt that Roger (as another Horneteer of note) Knows it.

The trouble is - write it in an article and come the next Dinghy Show, I'll be found hanging from the organ pipes with a spinnaker pole stuffed where the sun doesn't shine.

Are certain people (not just in the Hornets) in denial? You bet!

Tell 'em that though and the post bag will brim over (like one's cup) but with unhappy people.....

D

[alan williams]

Hi Dave
Trouble is it's areally good boat and is faliing because of the delusions of certain Committee members. Ok we were no angels. A famous yaching journalist once wrote "that if Hells Angels sailed boats they would sail Hornets" something I have always been rather proud of. He also said that hornteers were always the last boats to stop sailing in a blow and last to leave the bar. How things have changed.
Al

[davidh]

Okay Al, don't be shy.

It was Bob Fisher - once he got his pants back!!

D

[Michael Brigg]

So if we are agreed upon the quality of the Hornet , the Minisail and the Maurauder, and that if one is dead, another in the realms of the undead and the other heading for the locker, then is there an identifiable common theme.

Are these classes representetive of a yachting Zietgeist, which like Home brewed beer and Watney's Red Barrel have either been left behind by the march of time or thrown themselves upon the sword of fashion.

Thank god for that, its Friday evening, I knew I could work in some alcohol.

The Maurauder a kind of Jaguar Daimler. Faultless, smooth, but kind of brown courdroy. The Minisail, a Mini, still around, sweet, but so sixties and dated,like Soho and Carnaby Street, and the Hornet, a Ford Capris...with a go fast Starsky and Hutch paint job.

It strikes me that the fleets that have survived have done so by development, (Such as the i14 and MR,) developing a niche market (the Firefly and Lark, and University/Team racing) maintaining a broad appeal in club racing (the Mirror, Fireball,) or international popularity (505, finn) as well as ease of maintenance and a range of competetive to non competetive sailors who are happy to run the assotiations and respected enough to retain their services.

The infant mortality rate of modern boats seems to be remarkable, but reading the sailing almanacs of the '50's reveals a rate of attrition every bit as red in tooth and claw.

The Hornet still puzzles me. It definately rates as one of the top ten boats I would like to own, and yet a glance at the website suggests just 5 open meetings in the season, one of which they need to share with 4 other classes and only about 20 boats at the nationals. I would hope that at least some of Davids perception of the Class demise is due to looking back with the benefit of hindsight , and we should all avoid this or borrow AG's retrospectoscope to look up our bulkheads. My gut feeling is that the Hornet should be good enough to find it's way back if it uses publicity well and finds ways to make the class more affordable for students and younger sailors.

[JimC]

it would be well nigh another 20 years before Phil Morrison produced another UK (stress the UK - you're right about the dearth of UK dinghy designs post the Fireball and Topper) hull shape that got anywhere near this.

You mean vaguely like this sort of shape? So, no it wouldn't be another twenty years...

[davidh]

Sorry Jim,

Going to take issue with this.

I've had the adavantage of interviewing Peter Milne some years past, with the subject of the M14 being at the heart of our conversation.

Peter made two clear statements; The M14 was designed with a complete disregard for either wetted area or rise of floor. Although your lines of the Cherub are interesting, they fail to match the clear departure from the then accepted 'norm' that the new boat represented. And yes, it would be another 20 years before Phil M was really free of the all the shackles that had so constrained UK dinghy design.

I know this is a right 'bete noir' of yours but you are right - post the 1960s, UK dinghy designs were going nowhere and unless a variant of the RS800 gets the required leg up to get the womens performance skiff slot for 2016 (it could happen and you read it here first) they are still missing from the premier division. Take away RS's Paul Handley (Terra, Feva) then the cupboard is bare.

and Michael..... I think the Hornet has tried (unsuccessfully to adapt - their rigs have changed over time. The trouble is that the basic concept needs a root and branch change and I do not think the class has the visionaries to lead them forward. Those who do want change have their own agendas...and the future of the class may not be top of the priorities. So a great boat and some even greater sailors and even greater still party goers.....

D

[DavidC]

OK, as requested and with support to Big AL another misty eyed thought for the Hornet.

The boat is fantastic. Of course there are other boats that are as good but the Hornet was something special. Where did it go wrong? I doubt there is one simple answer. Part of the problem was that they were built to well. The weight allowed a boat to last and in the growth of dinghy classes this is a bad thing generally. If the boat stays competitive over many years then there is not incentive to build new ones, so no second hand ones so not entry level boats so not new sailors etc.

The Fireball hull did not have the competitive life of a Hornet hull and so turn over was higher and they were easier to build. The class survived the "Revolution" and in fact grew again particularly as the Goodwin kits were excellent and produced fast boats but as has been said the home build world was dying and has yet to reappear. Will it ?- probably not seeing as nothing practical is taught in schools so a chisel and a saw is a total mystery to the modern generation.

The modern class has like so many others at present suffered the knee jerk reaction of selling its soul to the first bidder in the belief that it will solve all their problems and very rarely does. Alternatively the new builder builds something totally different and outclasses every boat in existence. On a personal question I always wonder whether we should have abandoned the seat. I loved them I know, but it did give us an identity. Without it we were just another 16 foot trapeze boat with fewer numbers than out competitors.

The Condor was mentioned. I raced number one to many years ago and sailed them regularly. A good design although I might be a little biased as I have a Mazzotti designed Unicorn to sail at present. The builder then (Zygall) had a somewhat variable quality and I remember endless little problems in the build. Although it was a strong class it had already had its day when they took the moulds and produced the Hurricane 4.9. Same boat underneath with a bigger rig. That made the package a really nice boat to sail.

I never sailed a Marauder which I regret. Could home building start again. Yes but only with a re-think as to how kits are produced and good marketing from magazines. Peg and tab rather than stitch and glue would produce a system which could guarantee a good boat and epoxy makes the whole process better. Maybe we should try it with the Marauder . The big production builders won't like it though and we may have to re-educate the buying public .

Hey Ho

D

[Michael Brigg]

David said:-

Could home building start again.

I presume there is a ? on the end of that one? (Sorry, that's my Rupert hat on )

The whole issue of DIY is a bit of a dead duck these days. Personally I blame Builders and planning regulations that allow you to call your Garden a "Brown field" site, to get around regulations about building in the leafy suburbs.

So many decent properties are being "developed" with one too many houses built on them all with NO garden, and a shed thats not big enough to hold a motor mower let alone a restoration project, but most importantly NO GARAGE! .

Also no room for access to the back garden. No room for parking on the street and only a tiny car port at the front. How will anyone keep let alone restore or build a boat in on of these "Ticky tacky little boxes."

[jon711]

David said:-

Could home building start again.

I presume there is a ? on the end of that one? (Sorry, that's my Rupert hat on )

The whole issue of DIY is a bit of a dead duck these days. Personally I blame Builders and planning regulations that allow you to call your Garden a "Brown field" site, to get around regulations about building in the leafy suburbs.

So many decent properties are being "developed" with one too many houses built on them all with NO garden, and a shed thats not big enough to hold a motor mower let alone a restoration project, but most importantly NO GARAGE! .

Also no room for access to the back garden. No room for parking on the street and only a tiny car port at the front. How will anyone keep let alone restore or build a boat in on of these "Ticky tacky little boxes."

Spot on, I have that problem.... my boat is on my parents drive in Cheshire 200 miles away, I want to buy a Pegasus, but the deeds on the flat do not allow boats. Most new "housing estates" are now flat complexes (Complexi??), I don't even have a garage.... How would I build a boat??? (admitedly I am in London Commter Belt, and things may be different in other parts of the country, or for people with more money than me!!)

Jon

[JimC]

David said:-

Could home building start again.

The whole issue of DIY is a bit of a dead duck these days. Personally I blame Builders and planning regulations...

I blame time... Not only is there a tendency for people to work longer hours, but very few people work close to where they live these days... A 40 minute commute, by the time you'd sat down and had a cup of coffee and unwound when you get home takes nearly two hours out of the day... What with that, internet, 32 Tv channels all the rest of it there is little chance or energy for doing any work on building a boat in the evenings so its weekends only, and weekend DIY had better be on the house or you're looking at a divorce... And if you're divorced you won't have anywhere to build a boat anyway... But you only have to look at the DIY warehouses to see that there's no shortage of DIY in the wider picture...

[Rupert]

David, it seems to me that you already have 2 excellent candidates for the faded classes. What you need is a class that will add something positive and upbeat to the piece. If you add a 3rd dead class, you have the equivelent of 19th century Opera, where everyone dies of TB or kills themselves in the last act, whereas if you add in a genuine comback kid, who's future was assumed to involve November the 5th all over the country for years to come, you have something more akin to 20th century Hollywood, where it all comes good in the end. You can then compare and contrast in order to work out how much of the difference was down to the personalities involved, how much to the changes that were made, and how much to blind luck and timing.

As for the Hornet, if the class is rapidly fading, putting it in the coffin with the Marauder while there is still some breath left is a surefire way of killing it. If the class members are refusing treatment so be it, but a one way ticket to Switzerland probebly isn't called for yet.

[davidh]

Rupert,

At the risk of veering into the realms of bad taste - back in thosy glory days what is on offer in Switzerland was probably being consumed by the wilder fringes of the fleet on a recreational basis - for not all of the high jinks were legally fuelled. THis was pre-M25, M5,M6 days, so any trip that went anywhere good involved a long haul. Getting back from Cramond (Al - a name there to spark the memory) was more than once chemically assisted.

One of the 'problems' for the class was that everyone was having such a good time that no one took any notice of the age demographics. The reason it was so much fun was that everyone was of a similar mindset (which is not age related but it helps) so when a certain point was reached and people started growing up and out of the crazy behaviour - a big chunk of the support went in a short space of time and there was no one left to replace them.

The home building is another issue. Can you imagine schools today allowing the students to have access to saws, chisels and the other 'dangerous' implements that one might need when woodworking? The Health and Safety Executive would have the vapours, whilst Headmasters Studies would be besieged by parents complaining that little Wayne or Derren had got a nasty splinter in their finger and that they'd be suing!! As for getting their thumbs between the hammer and the nail (something you tend to do only once) - dial 999 and get the Paramedics in pronto!

But Jim C is right too...we're all too busy and have too many other demands on out time. Here's a simple question@ How many clubs still hold a 'Laying up' supper and a 'Fitting Out' party?

d