is this possible?

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Mungo
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is this possible?

Post by Mungo » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:01 am

1955 505 for sale close to me for $500. The paint is horrendous but the cotton sails are pretty. Would a 505 that old be in Canada? Who would have made it? They are a pretty boat, if it's real and hasn't sold I'm tempted....
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JimC
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Re: is this possible?

Post by JimC » Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:34 am

Its possible, there are some astonishing survivors about, and clearly the sails put her way back. One possibility on the sail number though is that a number of classes adopted National sail numbers in their early days and only moved to International ones later on so she could be Canadian 505 no 69 rather than 505 number 69 of all countries.

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Ed
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Re: is this possible?

Post by Ed » Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:45 am

buying another boat.....before finishing the first!

Mungo....I am proud of you! a true CVRDAer

:lol:

eib

ps may well of been made by Fairey. Fairey were selling a lot of boats in Canada in this period.
Ed Bremner
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davidh
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Re: is this possible?

Post by davidh » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:17 am

Okay - the definitive answer.

505 number 69 was really number 69. Built by Tormentor Yachts at Warsash (probably though not exclusively from a Fairey Hull) the boat was owned by Sid Dakin and called 'Terrible Teapot.

It's location was...yes, Toronto, so it is what is says on the box, one of the very earliest 505s.

Questions: where are you - anywhere near Toronto, better still, anywhere near Woodstock?

Are you interested - this would go down a wow over in France where there is a very active classic 505 scene.

But - more to the point, the clock is already running towards the 60th Anniversary of the class in 2013/2014 - expect a huge interest in the early boats in the run up to that.

Regards

Dougal
David H

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Ed
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Re: is this possible?

Post by Ed » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:30 am

Wonderful!

This forum never ceases to amaze me.


eib
Ed Bremner
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Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

davidh
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Re: is this possible?

Post by davidh » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:46 pm

Then be prepared to be amazed some more Ed..... for there are indeed classics out there that will get the pulse racing (steady on there a bit) - and people who we've yet to discover with something to add to the association.

During my recent spell away from all things classic, I had not one but two emails arrive at home.

The first tells of a charming and to my eye very early Merlin that has luckily found a set of very sympathetic hands. The boat has been redecked at some point but looking at the shallowness of the transom makes me think that this is an early Holt boat.

The second email has the potential to be even more exciting, as it really could be the sailing 'find of the year'. In a well protected environment, it appears that a Ghost has lain undisturbed since 1967. Now this is not the only boat of this wonderful class to be stored away, for these is one in a garage down in Bosham awaiting restoration.

But it does go to show that these boats are still about - and now 505 number 69.

I wonder what will be next?

D
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Mungo
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Re: is this possible?

Post by Mungo » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:06 pm

It is a tormentor (means nothing to me) boat. Not clear if it has been sold. It has been for sale apparently for about 3 years. Described as stored indoors, usable needing paint. I haven't been able to contact the seller and it was advertised on line in early september.

Yes I would love to have 2 boats and sail neither.... jollyboat is classically beautiful, 505's have sexy curves.

divorce lawyer would probably end up with one of them... I could sleep in the other.

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Re: is this possible?

Post by JimC » Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:22 pm

davidh wrote:The second email has the potential to be even more exciting, as it really could be the sailing 'find of the year'. In a well protected environment, it appears that a Ghost has lain undisturbed since 1967. Now this is not the only boat of this wonderful class to be stored away, for these is one in a garage down in Bosham awaiting restoration.
If one needs a home I could be interested...

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Re: is this possible?

Post by chris » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:33 am

The person with the early merlin you show, David, has been in touch with Garry and I. It's certainly an early merlin (ribbed so pre no.500) But at the moment unidentifiable as the thwart with the number has been replaced. I don't think it is a Holt build as the planks are wrong for his work near the bow and there are more than he used to use. It could be based on a Holt design possible an owner-build. We've narrowed down the hull numbers it can't be but that's probably as far as we can get. Incidently the person who bought it and is restoring it is must be our youngest restorer - at 13! Shows the appeal of lovely wooden boats.

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Re: is this possible?

Post by davidh » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:38 am

Okay, two replies for the price of one (a first of the month Friday special offer)

Okay - Tormentor yachts/Boats and Fairey Marine. This story goes way, way back to the start of the post war dinghy era. Without going into the 'whys' there were sections of the yachting authorities that were less that supportive of the way things were going. One very visible aspect of this was the fact that Charles Currey was NOT allowed to sail in the Trials for the 1948 Olympics, even though he was very much the premier Firefly sailor at the time. He was deemed to be a professional, in a sport that was still very much amateur. The fact that the people making this call had private means, well, that is all part of the story.

Fast forward to 1950 - the Finn has been chosen as the new Olympic single hander and Faireys are already making boats. Charles Currey is already showing considerable form in the boat but is in danger of being red carded again. So, across the river from Faireys at Hamble is the village of Warsash, where there is a boatyard, Tormentor Boats. A deal was done whereby Tormentor would build a certain number of boats that were marketed and branded as Tormentor (though the bare hulls may well have been built at Hamble and shipped across the river - a distance of about 500 yds). Charles sailed a Tormentor Finn and thereby escaped the professional dictat - a great result as he went on to take the Silver Medal at the Olympics in Helsinki.

With the deal between Fairey's and Tormentor in place, other boats were to follow of which the 505 was one.

Now here is where it gets interesting: Was Jack Chippendale once a worker at Tormetor?
What is clear is that some of the earliest 505s in existence are Chippendale boats - including 505 number 36/or 38, safely stored in a garage.

Mungo - if you can find any more details on this boat it would be great.

505s aside for reply 2, I've unearthed a picture of H.G McHaffie, with his boat, taken I believe in 1949. Again, the thinking is that the boat is a holt or holt derivitive..... watch this space for more on this!!

Jim C - thanks for your message and yes, your interest is noted

Exciting times in the classics world!

D
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Mungo
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Re: is this possible?

Post by Mungo » Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:10 pm

Regretfully I am getting no reply back from the seller of the 505. I suspect it has been sold. I'll update if I hear anything.

Mungo
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Re: is this possible?

Post by Mungo » Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:15 pm

the boat is still for sale....

masked under a lot of red paint. I assume the hull is wood underneath it all. any comments from 505 types on what you see in the pic below. I assume the step stools are an addition (the present owner is quite elderly). The rudder tiller attachment? shape of the centreboard box etc. i will go see it next week if I can.
3512dah_20.jpg
as an update, just talked to the owner and it likely isn't worth buying.... 2nd owner bought it 1960. All original stuff is there. The bad.... the outside of the boat was fiberglassed in the 1980's, then the wood on the floor was removed from the inside and replaced with fiberglass (!!??). It was described as original wood from the base of the tanks up.... Not sure how to deal with a fiberglassed boat, and how to completely replace the floor... I am not sure I'm ready for Nessa sized challenges.

apparently was still sailed up until last year
Last edited by Mungo on Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

davidh
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Re: is this possible?

Post by davidh » Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:46 pm

Mungo (is there another name? It seems rather rude to be just starting an email 'Hi Mungo'!! and secondly - where exactly are you?)

Brilliant - take you camera and snap away happily - either email them or send them on a CD, they will get used in the best possible way.

So what do I see in the picture?

Well, I am sure that Rupert/nessa or one of the other Fairey owners will help me here but the tube cleat that is used for the plate downhaul looks 100% Fairey. But then it would - for Tormentor were but a stones throw across the river. As far as I know, Faireys were the only site building boats from the hot moulded process, the other five-0s of that era were cold moulded.

Now one of the first ever builders of a boat was Larry Marks - I think he and Keith Paul were very early five o sailors and I am pretty sure that they had either Fairey or Tormentor hulls (for home completion). Let me have a dig around here, both Larry and Keith are local, I can then get the full story.

D
David H

Mungo
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Re: is this possible?

Post by Mungo » Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:43 pm

davidh wrote:Mungo (is there another name? It seems rather rude to be just starting an email 'Hi Mungo'!! and secondly - where exactly are you?)
It's not rude, my name is,.... Mungo (patron saint of Glasgow!, although I have no Scottish heritage). I'm at home, in Canada, Kitchener just west of Toronto, it's cold and raining, I'm drinking truly bad beer. The boat is about 2.5 -3 hrs east of me, beside the local nuclear power plant.

Thanks for the reply. I'm really not sure the boat is worth a visit. It sounds,.... "well modified", and I am unsure how recoverable. The owner is very nice and very fond of his boat. Shame how he abused it. Although at the time he did, it probably was just a boat. What to do with a half fiberglass floored boat (what supports the fiberglass floor if the wood is gone?). How much rotten wood is under the fiberglass? my buying threshold was a good hull with some problems. I think this well beyond that. If I'm just thin skinned speak up.... There was a flying dutchman hull for sale around here recently that had suffered a similar fiberglassing wood removal fate.... not that I look around for boats....

davidh
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Re: is this possible?

Post by davidh » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:27 pm

Ji Mungo.

how far is Kitchener from Woodstock?

Oh no...think my niece is on your your local Police force..you could get yourself pulled but a relative of the Henshalls!

D
David H

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