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 Post subject: 420 Rigging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:05 am
Posts: 69
Evening all,

As you are probably aware, i am now a happy owner of a 420 (thanks Sami) but im a little miffed about the mast set up!

I am aware that it needs chocks, but the bottom of the mast seems free to move forwards and backwards 4-5 inches! Is there anything supposed to be there to stop this, or will the rig tension hold it in place when set up correctly?

Cheers

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: 420 Rigging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:39 pm
Posts: 203
Location: Staffordshire
Do you mean there's no mast step or do you mean there's 4-5 inches of movement at the mast gate?

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SB


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 Post subject: Re: 420 Rigging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:05 am
Posts: 69
There is a mast step, 2 of them as Sami pointed out to me!

The step is more of a long notch which the mast sits in and over, but this notch will allow the mast to move forwards and backwards.

I was under the impression that the chocks would generate the mast rake while the foot of the mast stayed in one position, but without the mast being locked in position at the bottom, what is to stop it moving backwards and forwards as you adjust the rake?

Maybe i need to go down the club and take a few pics?

Cheers

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: 420 Rigging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:39 pm
Posts: 203
Location: Staffordshire
You need to stop the fore and aft movement at the step somehow. Google has come up with this tuning guide

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source ... iw&cad=rja

Perhaps that will help. It seems that 420s move the mast at step level in different wind conditions.

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SB


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 Post subject: Re: 420 Rigging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:26 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:05 am
Posts: 69
Thanks, been through most of google looking for an answer. Looks like it may be trial and error till i find out otherwise!

It was pointed out to me that the boat has a second mast step further forward so the mast can be moved and sailed single handed without the jib!

Cheers

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: 420 Rigging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:34 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:39 pm
Posts: 203
Location: Staffordshire
Taking the jib off for single-handing? What a silly idea :) It explains the extra mast step though.

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SB


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 Post subject: Re: 420 Rigging
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:01 pm
Posts: 400
Location: twixt Chichester & Pompey
Good point Mark......hadn't thought about that really........I would say some inverted U section chocks are the answer..I'll have a look at the other Snapir tomorrow (it's up the right way now)...you can play with mast rake and fore/aft tuning more then.....quite a wide range of options there.
I've never seen anyone bother with the forward mast position really.....most just sail it as is and either take the jib off and adjust the plate as needed......or just go for it and sail single handed with the kite as well......great fun....but extra tiller ext needed.
Incidentally, has anyone ever seen a 420 with wooden breakwaters on the foredeck? I owned/raced number K4313 many, many years ago that had this feature......never seen one that old, or any where near that number.....anyone else??

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 Post subject: Re: 420 Rigging
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:09 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:44 pm
Posts: 1347
Location: Devon
Hi Sami
Wooden Breakwaters and thwarts yes early Honnor (Horror) Marine boats were equipped in this way. The one that the school brought me in the sixties definately had this along with the second mast step and the tubular main traveler.
Cheers Al


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 Post subject: Re: 420 Rigging
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:37 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:05 am
Posts: 69
alan williams wrote:
Hi Sami
Wooden Breakwaters and thwarts yes early Honnor (Horror) Marine boats were equipped in this way. The one that the school brought me in the sixties definately had this along with the second mast step and the tubular main traveler.
Cheers Al



Sounds very much like the one i have!
Will take a few pics when i getthe chance.

Cheers

Mark.


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 Post subject: Re: 420 Rigging
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:06 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:52 pm
Posts: 982
Location: Oxford (Work) Coteswold Water Park (Sailing)
I'd be careful using a modern tuning guide on an old 420... 300 lbs rig tension will damage things.

The mast step needs short rectangles of hardwood that fit in the slot, before and aft of the mast foot. You need a range, if you want to tune the 420... The heel of the mast will hold them in place.

Mast rake mainly controlled by jib halyard setting (on the rack or lever) with adjustable chain plate settings. On old 420's there is no such thing as rig tension really - the hulls are very flexible and you will find upwind the leward shroud goes quite slack.

Chocks at deck level control how much the lower part of the mast will bend - bigger chocks, less bend, more power...

The forward mast step is indeed for solo (jibless) sailing.

Keeping the hull flat will make more difference than any of this!! Enjoy - I loved 420 when I was a teenager and thus not too heavy. I still enjoy blasting in them - in a good breeze.

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j./
Unit 2/7
Skol Mk III "The Hopple"
National 12 "Orlando" 2777,
Comet Trio - something always ready to sail!!!
British Moth, 630, early 60's 'Pisces'


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 Post subject: Re: 420 Rigging
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:15 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Emsworth, Hants; usually sail in Chichester Harbour
solentgal wrote:
Incidentally, has anyone ever seen a 420 with wooden breakwaters on the foredeck? I owned/raced number K4313 many, many years ago that had this feature......never seen one that old, or any where near that number.....anyone else??


I've seen a 420 numbered fifty-something at Dell Quay on a few occasions and wondered if there are many older in the UK.....

Chris Turner
Fireballs 6, 66 and 14463 (on its way)


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 Post subject: Re: 420 Rigging
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:44 pm
Posts: 1347
Location: Devon
Hi The 420 also had a singlehanded rig similar to a Finn with a wooden bendy mast. When I sailed in the Worlds in Plymouth in the Sixties there were seperate championships for the Solara's and the boats sailing with the rig moved forward and the jib removed. This took place in the evening and at the end of the worlds and nice prizes were handed out for the single handed sailors.
Most people just dumped the crews and went for it.
Cheers Al


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 Post subject: Re: 420 Rigging
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:39 pm
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Location: Wrabness, Essex
solentgal wrote:
Incidentally, has anyone ever seen a 420 with wooden breakwaters on the foredeck? I owned/raced number K4313 many, many years ago that had this feature......never seen one that old, or any where near that number.....anyone else??

Sorry to post on an old thread but i have just bought a fairly early 420 and i really need some advice. I think it is a Lanaverre hull but it has been fitted out by Honour Marine. It has the wooden breakwaters, wooden inside keel and no mast gate.
I was hoping that someone could give me some info about the rigging, in particular the jib tensioning method. There is also mention in the posts of a second mast step. Was this on all of these as i don't think mine has this.
The boat is fitted out with an aluminium mast and trapeze equipment, but without a mast gate, will it be ok to use?

Demon
Did you ever take any pictures of yours? I'd be really interested in seeing them.......... Especially the mast step and jib setup.


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 Post subject: Re: 420 Rigging
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:02 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:01 pm
Posts: 400
Location: twixt Chichester & Pompey
Hi Ian, Was this the ebay one in Kent?.....I nearly bid in the hope it was a very early one with wooden breakwaters (trying to recapture my youth, lol) .....but with a possible move coming up common sense prevailed!

I've just had a look at a pic (not digital unfortunately, and no scanner here) of my old one (K4313) and there doesn't appear to be a mast gate at all on that one (which fits with my memory). It should be ok, as we sailed/raced ours with no problems. (the Pacer class seemed to vary too, some with no mast gate/thwart) The mast should sit directly on the keel and there should be cut outs with a metal plate of some description on each position.....one below and slightly aft (10cm?) the V of the breakwater, as the forward position of the mast puts the mast nearly up to the breakwater, and the other (aft) position is a little further back.......40cm??
Jib tension......has it got hanks? Or is it just a wire? Unless it is just a wire, I have always just swigged on the halyard and cleated it! If it is a wire only then a lever may be needed really.........it depends on how seriously you take performance....I sailed the Pacer recently with the wire-only genoa quite slack as there was no lever........and I still had a lot of fun!

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 Post subject: Re: 420 Rigging
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:15 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
Posts: 289
Location: France
A few hints about 420's:

The early lanaverres with wooden bits (keel , breakwater , transom beam ...and originally ..mast and boom) were well built -specially by 60's standards ...but they were no intended for hard racing .

They were about completely made of glass fabric (roving) with very little matt.

The two mast step Gimmick was a sailing school requirement (the initial idea was from sailing instructors Latxgue and LeHoerff at National training centre in Socoa who wanted to cope with an odd number of pupils.

Even though they were well made they had no "boat breaker"device for tensioning the jib halyard and were not intended for high rig tensions

The early lanaverres had two mast steps , two sets of shroud plates..and a posssibility to adjust centrebord position, as the centreboard pivot was on a stainlesss steel "U" that was sled in two grooves in the centreboard case and bolted on the upper lip ....and there were two sets of grooves.

Later the 420 was somewhat tampred with , in line with fiercer comptition (Centre main layout was authorized and then traveller was added , first as a bolt on upgrade kit, then as standard equipment...and at first , the traveller was not bolted to the cCB case ( This came with the H section replacing the round section traveller...and then , ironically the use of more powerful kickers made the traveller obsolete ...but it was kept as a structural stiffener).

It is a pity for the non racers because the cockpit of the first 420' without traveller was really roomy and uncluttered.


Later the centrboard became fixed with a "right through" bolt, many parts became plastic and the clever system of hidden centreboard lips was changed to the more hydrodynamic but more fragile "flat lips"


Unfortunately with the 420 Huge success Lanaverre tried to mill out more boats and included a higher proportion ofchopped projected matt... an unfortunate move, because with the boat going international, and the spinnaker and trapeze adopted for youth sailors rig tensions started to increase up to the boat limits (cracks at the juncture between tanks and hull somewhre in the middle).

In the late seventies other makers started to tamper even more with the boat (Snbapir, Nautivela , Rondar, Vanguard...) : they beefed up the hull ...at the expense of the side tanks , gussing that racers would nver sit on the aft part of the tanks and lightening it....

Fine but ex racing boats ended in the hands of beginners who did sit close to the transom..and cracked the tanks...

Una rig was popular in the begining, and had a specially dedicated race in the Europeans and Worlds (much like the Dart 18 style of events) but it's popularity declined in France because the FFYV had endorsed the OK dinghy (and had molds loaned to clubs for DIY OK enthusiasts) .
The 420 class then tried a (rater rare ) unstayed , OK style una rig, with a special mastgate fitted in the brakwater "V" but it did'nt catch up....


With the 420 being more and more a racing first step towards the olympic 470, there was much imitation of the research of go fast gimmicks taken from the top 470 sailiors and adapted to the 420 ...with somesimplification , to comply (just) with the 420 nrules .


Retrospectively, the 420 class should have acted like the Laser class did, and kept the boat as simple as possible.


My advice is , if you use an old 420 , is to use most of the settings and tuning tricks from top notch 420 sailors using state of he art and exopensive 420 from Blue Bue, Zigelmeyer and the like...even ex racer's sails...but refrain frrom using too much rig tension...and enjoy because the 420 is truely a great design specially in strong winds, and it is much more an all rounder than , say, 29'er


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