420 Rigging

General chat about boats
LASERTOURIST
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Re: 420 Rigging

Post by LASERTOURIST »

A few hints about 420's:

The early lanaverres with wooden bits (keel , breakwater , transom beam ...and originally ..mast and boom) were well built -specially by 60's standards ...but they were no intended for hard racing .

They were about completely made of glass fabric (roving) with very little matt.

The two mast step Gimmick was a sailing school requirement (the initial idea was from sailing instructors Latxgue and LeHoerff at National training centre in Socoa who wanted to cope with an odd number of pupils.

Even though they were well made they had no "boat breaker"device for tensioning the jib halyard and were not intended for high rig tensions

The early lanaverres had two mast steps , two sets of shroud plates..and a posssibility to adjust centrebord position, as the centreboard pivot was on a stainlesss steel "U" that was sled in two grooves in the centreboard case and bolted on the upper lip ....and there were two sets of grooves.

Later the 420 was somewhat tampred with , in line with fiercer comptition (Centre main layout was authorized and then traveller was added , first as a bolt on upgrade kit, then as standard equipment...and at first , the traveller was not bolted to the cCB case ( This came with the H section replacing the round section traveller...and then , ironically the use of more powerful kickers made the traveller obsolete ...but it was kept as a structural stiffener).

It is a pity for the non racers because the cockpit of the first 420' without traveller was really roomy and uncluttered.


Later the centrboard became fixed with a "right through" bolt, many parts became plastic and the clever system of hidden centreboard lips was changed to the more hydrodynamic but more fragile "flat lips"


Unfortunately with the 420 Huge success Lanaverre tried to mill out more boats and included a higher proportion ofchopped projected matt... an unfortunate move, because with the boat going international, and the spinnaker and trapeze adopted for youth sailors rig tensions started to increase up to the boat limits (cracks at the juncture between tanks and hull somewhre in the middle).

In the late seventies other makers started to tamper even more with the boat (Snbapir, Nautivela , Rondar, Vanguard...) : they beefed up the hull ...at the expense of the side tanks , gussing that racers would nver sit on the aft part of the tanks and lightening it....

Fine but ex racing boats ended in the hands of beginners who did sit close to the transom..and cracked the tanks...

Una rig was popular in the begining, and had a specially dedicated race in the Europeans and Worlds (much like the Dart 18 style of events) but it's popularity declined in France because the FFYV had endorsed the OK dinghy (and had molds loaned to clubs for DIY OK enthusiasts) .
The 420 class then tried a (rater rare ) unstayed , OK style una rig, with a special mastgate fitted in the brakwater "V" but it did'nt catch up....


With the 420 being more and more a racing first step towards the olympic 470, there was much imitation of the research of go fast gimmicks taken from the top 470 sailiors and adapted to the 420 ...with somesimplification , to comply (just) with the 420 nrules .


Retrospectively, the 420 class should have acted like the Laser class did, and kept the boat as simple as possible.


My advice is , if you use an old 420 , is to use most of the settings and tuning tricks from top notch 420 sailors using state of he art and exopensive 420 from Blue Bue, Zigelmeyer and the like...even ex racer's sails...but refrain frrom using too much rig tension...and enjoy because the 420 is truely a great design specially in strong winds, and it is much more an all rounder than , say, 29'er
JimC
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Re: 420 Rigging

Post by JimC »

LASERTOURIST wrote:Retrospectively, the 420 class should have acted like the Laser class did, and kept the boat as simple as possible.
They did? I hadn't noticed... what with custom flat carbon tillers and super expensive high purchase block kits...
Rupert
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Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Cotswold Water Park

Re: 420 Rigging

Post by Rupert »

The 420 is full of go faster bits, though. Laser carbon tiller is daft, but I assume comes from the days when there were both wood and ali tillers, so they left that bit of the rule open to choice.
Rupert
cweed
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Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:14 pm

Re: 420 Rigging

Post by cweed »

As for laser tillers, (and toestraps), they're just about the only componenets that I'd say Laser forgot to restrict to approved Laser design only.
The retrospecrive XD kicker and deck cleat and block unit are all rigorously specified, and therefore can be controlled and presumably licenced.
Demon
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:05 am

Re: 420 Rigging

Post by Demon »

cweed wrote:The retrospecrive XD kicker and deck cleat and block unit are all rigorously specified, and therefore can be controlled and presumably licenced.
There are 2 manufacturers, Holt Allen & an other (who i cant remember) with the kicker being of slightly different design to each other. However, both systems are expensive, though one is considerably cheaper than the other.
IanW wrote:Demon
Did you ever take any pictures of yours? I'd be really interested in seeing them.......... Especially the mast step and jib setup.
I have not yet taken any, but i will as soon as i get chance as i need photos myself!

Cheers

Mark
LASERTOURIST
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Location: France

Re: 420 Rigging

Post by LASERTOURIST »

Carbon tillers were a stupid move but the class vote blocked carbon top masts ..and the XD systems had some use with girls comming en masse in the radial and needing some way to control the basic settings without bulging muscles...

A good number of sailors don't use the XD vang (expensive) only the inexpensiv and efficient XD controls for the cunningham and sail foot.


Curiously , when it was still almos a Lanaverre SMOD (from 59 to 72) the 420 was almost as one design as the Laser, the Proctor D ali mast was so stiff that it did little difference with the big wooden original mast, the sails were all made by Elvstrôm (like the early laser) ....and the competition was fierce but friendly.
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jpa_wfsc
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Location: Oxford (Work) Coteswold Water Park (Sailing)

Re: 420 Rigging

Post by jpa_wfsc »

LASERTOURIST wrote: Curiously , when it was still almos a Lanaverre SMOD (from 59 to 72) the 420 was almost as one design as the Laser, the Proctor D ali mast was so stiff that it did little difference with the big wooden original mast, the sails were all made by Elvstrôm (like the early laser) ....and the competition was fierce but friendly.
.. which is one of the great things about the Comet classes - Andy Simmonds (builder) made sure that the class rules were very one design - a choice for how you laid out sail controls, but only one (aluminium) mast section allowed, etc. The result is definitely a class in which you can not buy your way to more performance, and in which competitions are fun but competitive. An object lesson in how to get it right.

Thankfully the cvrda is basically doing it all right. :-)
j./

National 12 "Spider" 2523
Finn K468 'Captain Scarlet'

British Moth, 630, early 60's 'Pisces'

!!!! Not CVRDA !!!!
Comet Trio - something always ready to sail.
IanW
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Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:39 pm
Location: Wrabness, Essex

Re: 420 Rigging

Post by IanW »

solentgal wrote:Hi Ian, Was this the ebay one in Kent?.....I nearly bid in the hope it was a very early one with wooden breakwaters (trying to recapture my youth, lol) .....but with a possible move coming up common sense prevailed!

I've just had a look at a pic (not digital unfortunately, and no scanner here) of my old one (K4313) and there doesn't appear to be a mast gate at all on that one (which fits with my memory). It should be ok, as we sailed/raced ours with no problems. (the Pacer class seemed to vary too, some with no mast gate/thwart) The mast should sit directly on the keel and there should be cut outs with a metal plate of some description on each position.....one below and slightly aft (10cm?) the V of the breakwater, as the forward position of the mast puts the mast nearly up to the breakwater, and the other (aft) position is a little further back.......40cm??
Jib tension......has it got hanks? Or is it just a wire? Unless it is just a wire, I have always just swigged on the halyard and cleated it! If it is a wire only then a lever may be needed really.........it depends on how seriously you take performance....I sailed the Pacer recently with the wire-only genoa quite slack as there was no lever........and I still had a lot of fun!
Hi, yes.......... another ebay bargain! I bought it as an inexpensive way for getting my son started, with the view that we can sail it together as a good all rounder and when he starts to progress there is the opportunity for him to get out on the trapeze.....
There is only one mast step with a metal plate so I’m not sure if the wooden keel has been replaced and only one mast step cut, as there are 2 sets of shroud plates present........?
Performance at this stage isn't too important so we'll probably go with the swig and cleat option for jib tension, my concern was that some of the posts say that they have buckled the hull and I was conscious of ruining a good boat, but if swig and cleat was the original method then it's good enough for me!
Thanks for your input so far! If anyone has any photos of the rigging then I would be grateful of a copy!
JimC
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Re: 420 Rigging

Post by JimC »

jpa_wfsc wrote: The result is definitely a class in which you can not buy your way to more performance,
You can *always* buy your way to more performance: new sails always make a difference... there are lead mine classes in the US where they seem to reckon to buy a new jib for every major event...
Rupert
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Re: 420 Rigging

Post by Rupert »

JimC wrote:
jpa_wfsc wrote: The result is definitely a class in which you can not buy your way to more performance,
You can *always* buy your way to more performance: new sails always make a difference... there are lead mine classes in the US where they seem to reckon to buy a new jib for every major event...
At least you know the new jib is the "right" new jib, and not a new jib that will be found slow compared to the new jib Jonny has had developed by a happy sail maker for £10,000...
Rupert
JimC
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Re: 420 Rigging

Post by JimC »

Rupert wrote:At least you know the new jib is the "right" new jib
Which if you think about it is an incentive to spend rather than the reverse, since its guaranteed boat speed. You don't have to accept three months or whatever off the pace until you've worked out the right tuning settings...
SoggyBadger
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Re: 420 Rigging

Post by SoggyBadger »

Rupert wrote:At least you know the new jib is the "right" new jib, and not a new jib that will be found slow compared to the new jib Jonny has had developed by a happy sail maker for £10,000...
I don't think the difference between sails from different lofts is measurable these days (assuming the loft has experience in your class of course). The details of how sails works is well understood these days and that has led towards optimised sail designs. I don't believe there are any boutique sailmakers out there with some secret wisdom which enables them to make a faster sail than anybody else.
Best wishes


SB
kaimusailing
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Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:51 pm

Re: 420 Rigging

Post by kaimusailing »

Hello, I am a retired American engineer on the Chesapeake Bay near Annapolis, Maryland, USA and I'm glad to find this forum. I purchased an older 420 thinking I could use it to sail train my Significant Other (Safety Officer?), but she will probably learn on my much larger catamaran instead. I didn't pick out a 420 specifically, it took about 5 tries on other dinghies before I got this one. I've read much of the information on this forum about older 420's and it's nice to get an idea where this boat came from. It is #15217 made by Honnor Marine, is as flimsy as descibed on this forum, but is fun to sail. I believe I have the original set of main and jib. The main has the correct number on it and no evidence of any other number, plus it has a date of 1969 on it, so I would guess that no one would buy a 1969 sail and put their numbers on it if the boat was much newer vintage.

I've been able to figure out much of the rigging and I've sailed it with both sets of sails (the "new" set is 1983 Ulmer, ha ha), and I've tried it with the mast in the usual position and in the forward "una rig" position. There were no trapezes with this boat, but the shroud tangs on the mast have pins for the trapezes. It looks like the trapeze attachment on the hull is a small fairlead between the shroud tang and jib fairlead and clam cleat. There is no spinnaker pole with this boat, but there is a spinnaker and a spinnaker halyard. I've looked at modern rigging guides for the 420 and they don't help me much.

I need to find out where the topping lift is run and the down haul, also the centerboard controls. There is a cleat on the top rear of the centerboard case and I've used that to tie off the board when it's rotated down. There is a small thwart way forward and I tie it off on that when I'm stowing it up. This board is the type with the U bracket that bolts to the top of the case, there is no pin through the case.

My questions are about the functions of several items: there is a fairlead centered on the aft surface of the vee coaming(which is glass, not wood), could this be for the spinnaker downhaul? On the thwart at the centerboard case there is a jam cleat on either side of the case that would take a line from forward, what are they for? There is a cleat on the side of the wooden inner keel aft of the centerboard case, what could that be for? Lastly, there is a small SS tang on the little thwart way forward with a hole, could take a small shackle, does anyone know?

I've been sailing this boat nearly everyday and find out something new about handling it each time. There are some cracks and crazing in the glass, just as described about other boats of this vintage and manufacture, but it has been around a long time and I don't expect it to collapse out from under me. I don't anticipate racing it, though there is an Int'l 420 group operating down south of Annapolis. I'm mainly trying not to capsize it and avoid any other embarrassment. I was an active windsurfer once and remember learning how to use the harness, which is like the trapeze. I can see working my way into that. It's been great fun so far.

Thanks for the forum and any helpful information,
Andy S.
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