Classic Handicaps

General chat about boats
davidh
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Re: Holt Tideway race

Post by davidh »

What's this????? Is sympathy expected????

When do I get mine? First of all Roger wanted to shanghi me into a Mirror for this event, now I've a far bigger worry.

Sailing the signature boat for the event, Jack Holt's own triple championship winning Merlin 16 'Gently' I'll be doing just that...sailing gently. I'm going to ask for an extra hoik on the PY and a 50m exclusion zone around the boat at all times. This week I've been having this recurring nightmare of not being able to look Chris Barlow in the eye as he surveys the pile of timber that had once been such an iconic boat. Worry not Chris - i'll be sailing as if I'm floating on egg shells.......

On a more serious note, there have already been some interesting discussions 'off line' on PYs (arising in part out of Bosham and other events), if there is any one group that has both numeric data and experience/knowledge of this topic it is the CVRDA.
To me, there is a great opportunity for the association to take the lead on this and to use the results that have been carefully collated by Pat - to then put them into a mix with the info from other classes and events (such as those in use for the Merlin Rocket DeMay series and classic 14s) and come up with a fairly 'sound' master list. This could then be passed on to the RYA with a recommendation that it becomes a subset of their master py programme/listings. Those clubs that wish to use the old 2/3 figure numbers can do so, equally they can do a simple reverse calculation from the 4 digit numbers -or they can just use the 4 digit scheme.

From my experience, those using cotton sails ought to get a bigger boost, ditto wooden spars.

I'm happy to work with both Pat, classes with an interest in a classic fleet and the RYA to help this along. What is clear to me is that as the classic movement gathers pace, this question is going to come up time and time again. It is an opportunity for the CVRDA to take the high ground and lead the classic movement forward, as the worst possible alternatibe would be for others to come up with a unified scheme that is in variance to our own!

D
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JimC
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Re: Holt Tideway race

Post by JimC »

I can readily feed information into the PYAC (Portsmouth Yardstick Advisory Committee). I think at the moment though the feeling in that group is likely to be that there are enough open cans of worms already without opening another in the form of age related handicaps. I doubt that in the short term the advice to consult the relevant Class Associations for age related handicaps will change.
The problem the PY has, as it moves to a more firmly statistically founded base with the PY website and receiving returns of actual race results, is that it becomes more and more difficult to justify including classes with dubious statistical data. Unless something dramatic happens, for instance, the demise of the cruiser handicaps seems likely sooner rather than later. I'm sure that if they tried recording data for age related categories of various classes the same thing would happen - there just wouldn't be enough data to publish a number at all for any of the variations.
However if there's a feeling in the CVRDA that we'd like to take a more proactive role in publishing handicaps for older craft or ones that no longer justify an RYA handicap I could have this brought up with the PYAC to see if the RYA would be happy about say publishing the CVRDA as a potential source for information that clubs could refer to. I think we'd have to consider publishing numbers in 4 figure format though. There's also the issue that there is now a genuine risk of number drift between successive years, something that hasn't really happened in the past.
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neil
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Classic Handicaps

Post by neil »

Admin Edit:

As this was being discussed in an event thread, and is an area that needs a wider discussion I've moved the relevant content here
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Michael Brigg
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Re: Classic Handicaps

Post by Michael Brigg »

The big problem, the elephant in every handicappers room, the real bandit, is always going to be Time, and Money.

This is readily apparent by looking at a one design class where even in the abscence of differences, the incremental tweaks add up to considerable differences in boat speed between boats at the front and back. In these fleets Handicap cannot be used as an excuse for 2nd place, so we have to look for other reasons. Then in all boats, the difference between a well maintained boat, and a shed is even further amplified by talent.

I think my boat is in reasonably good order. The sails all have secure seams, the paintwork and a fair bit of the structure was proffesionally restored at considerable expense about 4 years ago.

But... I hardly ever race the boat. I have a different crew pretty much every time I do. My sails are 25years old, and even though lightly used, there is undoubtably some improvement in the cut of the newer sails, and a stiffer cloth is now used. I have a slavish adherence to classic or original kit so I have old fashioned (useless) avon self bailers, and an older style "spoon" rudder. I have not yet perfected free running control lines because I cannot bear to drill holes in that newly varnised wood on the new thwart. Add to this that I don't use (or don't really know how to use) a tactical compass.

I think I'm a reasonably competent sailor. I can stay upright in most conditions, I can navigate well enough and I can do a roll tack and a Gybe in most conditions. Once upon a time I came 2nd in the Marlow trophy, and I have previously been confident of a place in the Gore trophy each time I have done the nationls.

But at Hamble 3 years ago I was nearly last in every race, even if I was mid fleet after the first beat, and it was often a real challenge not to be lapped by the race leaders. Other boats seemed to be simply going faster at all points.

Like riding a bicycle, you never forget how to do it, but you do forget how much time, thought and money you spent when you were young. There is also soo much more power available in a younger pair of legs, and then most important of all, simple practice, the 10,000hours of which is the difference between us mortals, and those 29 Gold medals.

Paul Kameen who was 2nd in the Nationals this year was at least 5mins in front of me in every race he sailed at Bosham. Ostensibly in the same boat.

But he is "Race tuned." He, and his crew know at every angle and wind speed where his sails should be set. His boat never stops moving and is never slowed down by little errors. The sails are new (or nearly so) and all his blocks and control lines run freely. I'll bet his boat doesn't leak. That's at least 10kg less weight at every point of the race and the damping action of water sloshing in the bottom, and the loss of concentration due to nnoyence and time spent constantly bailing. The foils are all smooth and polished. The boat is down to weight. And that's before you even factor in superior tactical and sailing skill.

Without other more ordinary firefly sailors in the fleet for comparison, some might have said or certainly thought he had a handicap bandit.

Handicaps by returns are always going to be influenced by the extemes in the fleet. The problem is that there is now such a gulf between the top end sailors and journeymen such as myself. The real problem is how to ensure that only the Average, or "normal" sailor is used, without someone else crying "foul."

And that is with a class that has a relatively tight control over development, confining itself primarily to simple, economically prudent modernisation.

When it comes to the challenge of how to give a fair handicap to a development class, especially one where it is a "restricted" development class I am reminded of the Australian whose dog was never beaten in the fighting pit.

Asked what dog he had, he called it a "Long nosed, Long tailed, Scaly terrier.... but I call it a Crocodile for short!"
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Rupert
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Re: Classic Handicaps

Post by Rupert »

I think Michael's post sums things up quite well - it is often the best sailors who have the best boats.

Luckily, the cvrda can, unlike the RYA, do something about the state of tune issue. We generally have the "up-together" boat sailing off the scratch handicap, unless they have introduced anachronisms such as carbon masts and laminate sails, which will get a penalty. We then add points to handicaps for the state of originality. So, sticking with the Firefly, we add points for steel plate, wooden topmast, cotton sails, spoon blade etc. What I don't think we are doing is making enough allowance for sails dating back to when the boat was built.

The trouble is, where do you draw the line between someone just happening to have a set of knacked sails, and someone setting out to keep the boat with all the original kit? When the boat was new, the sails were new, too. If the person has put new paint on the bottom, new varnish on the inside, why not new sails, especially if they can be made in the style of the sails the boat had when new?

So we issue guidelines with our handicaps - suggestions to organizers as to what they can do to our handicaps to make racing more fair between boats with original kit and those with new. Over the years, these guidelines have widened the differences. There is a good case that we need to widen things further in some cases. The Firefly in Dr Brigg's posting would be a good example of where the class has updated itself, and maybe we underestimate the speed changes this has caused.

Cotton sails and wooden masts are another. At the moment, a Cotton sail-wood mast boat will get a 6 point bonus, so Iska sails off 101, not 95. Trouble is, we don't get enough boats out to test whether this works - Chris and Lois are really the only team we have significant data for on this front. If I remember rightly, their results come out similar whether sailing 507 with metal and dacron or 6 with wood and cotton, but I could be wrong on that. I would have no problem with increasing the difference, if that would encourage people to get out the cotton. I'm not sure this is the driving force behind the lack of cotton sailed boats, though?

I would like opinions from regular cvrda sailors - the people who use the cvrda handicaps most often, on the cotton issue, on the 3 figure issue (we use handicaps that are above and below 100, the RYA use 1000 - should we change to match the RYA, or keep ours as they are?) and on handicapping differences between old and new kit. It is the opinions of people who actually sail in the cvrda that matter - you are the ones using the system to try and create fair racing - the system needs to work for you, not for a theoretical haigher purpose.

So please, even if you don't normally comment on such things, let me know, either on here or via PM, what changes we should make to make things fairer for the new season, even if the answer is none - that is still useful info.
Rupert
roger
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Re: Classic Handicaps

Post by roger »

Good post Rupert.

I have often thought that Shoestring in original wooden mast and early terylene sails (and a little more sympathetically sailed) is much slower than the results I used to get with our revo (old cvrda class) Hornet.
However it has already been pointed out that recently we havent finished many races due to glue failure so the handicappers have been unable to get any times.
We did sail most of the races at the Nationals and I think the association took some times for us and I will contact them and see if we can use them.
We also sailed a more up to date boat and those times should also give us a guide to how bad we were on the water.

The handicap system we use (and handicapping is never going to be totally fair) should give the older, more original boats at least a level playing field if not a slight advantage. After all isnt that the whole point of the CVRDA.

To be honest from a personal point of view I enjoy the cameraderie of the cvrda as much as the racing and whilst I enjoy a good result I know there are a lot better sailors on the course than me.

My feelings on the CVRDA system as it stands is that it should be open to tweaking and available for all to see. I am sure it will need to progress as time moves on but in a gentle evolution.
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Pat
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Re: Classic Handicaps

Post by Pat »

I've been collecting cvrda results data now for several years. I'm gradually collating a database of all boats and results we've got (influence of the day job here!), to do some analysis which may help with handicapping . Also I have a good number of sailwave .blw files which could be analysed or fed into the RYA system. As Roger says the lack of completed races mucks up the stats!
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chris
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Re: Classic Handicaps

Post by chris »

So many points to consider on this it's difficult to know where to start.

To some extent anyone, such as a sailing club's handicapper, is expected/entitled/may-if-required set handicaps. The RYA is the official body that run the Portsmouth yardstick system and not only expect organisations that use the system to send in data (returns) but also encourages them to work out their own set of numbers for their own use.
So the first point is that the CVRDA have no 'Official' standing when it come to suggesting a number that any other event organiser may want to use. The CVRDA have always stressed this and this is one reason that we use the three figure numbers so that they do not tally with modern numbers. Over the past ten years some information and experience has been built up, the numbers have been modified as we go along but we can't claim to have been scrupulously scientific about it. (hard data is simply incomplete - eg: no one has yet turned up with brand new cotton sails for us to compare them with 60 year old sails).

Any handicapper must first identify just what they are aiming for and decide upon their own philosophy. The CVRDA set out to encourage the preservation and use of older dinghies that for all sorts of reasons may otherwise be seen to have come to the end of their life. These dingies do form part of our heritage and we feel the best way is to provide an environment where it is worth racing them. Different people have different views on what they want to do with an elderly boat; whether to preserve it as 100% original or to completely update it within the current class rules. Most boats we see are somewhere in between and some even fall apart during events! I like the fact that we bias handicaps in favour of originality and age. The older the boat and its equipment the more likely you are to sail it cautiously. But where do you draw the line between that and a boat that is just in very poor, knackered condition? (which is something we are not trying to encourage)

The wooden masts and cotton sail issue: First question might be " How have the rules changed?" The merlin rules have developed considerably from the first 25' rig now allowing a 10% increase in area for a start. I don't know about classes such as the Firely or Ents for instance. If their rules have only allowed for a change of materials then perhaps the py difference should not be quite as much.

I am uneasy about just talkng about wooden vs Ali or Carbon masts without taking other things into account. I think the complete rig needs treating as a whole, not just the mast. The boom, any controls, spinnaker poles etc should all be part of it too. Iska, Secret Water,Ganet or Gently for instance, have nothing to allow for sail control once afloat: no cunningham, outhaul etc So one point I would suggest is that to make any compensation for a wooden mast the whole rig must be authentic. A wooden mast with carbon boom, twin easy-launch carbon poles, and adjustable controls etc. should not qualify for an advantage. (some wooden masts are actually lighter than an aluminium one, they just bend differently).

Once you accept that, within CVRDA events, handicaps will reflect the state-of-tune, and to some extent condition, difference between new and old then it must follow that details need to be considered. The real question is how detailed?
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Re: Classic Handicaps

Post by JimC »

chris wrote:eg: no one has yet turned up with brand new cotton sails for us to compare them with 60 year old sails
Sudden vision here of a vintage Merlin equipped with new cotton sails treated with a polymer filler so vicious that they are as crisp as new terylene...
Pretty much right on all counts I think Chris...
There are no easy answers... In my time in the Cherubs we published age related numbers that were based on contemporary RYA PY numbers and matching specifications/rule sets, but for a handicap competition within the National Champs we used much more generous allowances such that the old boats would actually be compettive as they were against modern ones.
The Merlins on the other hand just seem to knock off so many points a year.
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Re: Classic Handicaps

Post by SoggyBadger »

Sails are a tricky one. My personal view is that sails are consumables like the tyres on your car - when they're worn out you replace them. So I'm not convinced that there's a strong case for giving a handicap allowance for clapped out old Dacron sails. It always seems a little odd to me that someone would go to all the effort of restoring, painting and varnishing an old boat until she absolutely gleams and then rig her with a suit of clapped out mud and rust stained rags that the original owner wouldn't have let with 100 yards of his pride and joy :?

Cottons sails probably should have a handicap allowance if only as a reward for persevering with a technology most sailors of the time dropped like a stone as soon as Terylene sails became available.

I'll be interested in hearing other view points.
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SB
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Re: Classic Handicaps

Post by Rupert »

Chris,

on the "one size fits all" thing on cotton sails, and the obvious fact that it doesn't, I hope that the suggested changes are treated exactly as that - suggestions. They should be used as a starting point. This is one reason why I can't see the cvrda system becoming a gold standard - there are so many variables, boats have to be treated one at a time, which needs an understanding and knowledgeable handicapper. Sounds like the Tideway had exactly that.

SB, entirely agree about old knackered sails... except... many people have also kept all the old wooden/tufnol fittings, all the original ropes and all, as well as the sails. The boat (apart from the paint and varnish, I guess, and some have never been stripped back, even) is as built. In these cases there is certainly a point for allowing a handicap advantage, to allow the boat which has been kept in museum condition to be used and raced in the real world, and not consigned to a dusty shed. Personally, I am of the opposite approach - I like my classic boats to be able to win against modern day boats without resorting to classic handicap allowances. From this perspective, I'm coming to the conclusion that we need to be more generous to boats using the old kit, and Chris is right, we need to be more holistic in our approach.

A couple of years ago, I tried to start an idea where people could have a "card" for their boat, showing what she was, what age, what the state of tune was - ie, was she modernized, or using the old kit, what sails did she carry, all that sort of gubbins. This could then be used to give the boat a handicap which could be carried from event to event, to give club handicappers a headstart on getting things right for the venue. Worth another go?
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Re: Classic Handicaps

Post by PeterV »

For the Finn the old sails issue has a different dimension. The luff curve needs to be much more to fit the wooden mast and is so far from a modern mast that no modern sail will fit, hence why I have to use a nackered Dacron sail with the wooden mast. I think that the sail has more effect on performance, particularly upwind, than the mast, but I also don't want to break the mast so I'll also only use it in light winds. Another reason I don't use it much is that if there's other Finns racing I'd rather try and beat them on the water than on handicap.
As for tuning, I'm somewhere between Chris and Rupert. I want everything to work reliably, even when I'm sailing in 30 knots with a modern rig, but I also want to keep the boat relatively in keeping with it's age. Therefore I've overhauled tufnol cleats and early Holt ones so that they work efficiently rather than replacing them with new. My performance shows, I think that originality can be reasonably efficient.
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davidh
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Re: Classic Handicaps

Post by davidh »

Rupert,

I thought way back when and I still think now that the idea of the 'classic' certificate could work really well. It wouldn't be all that difficult to knock up a simple form that doesn't only cover the core details but gives some ideas of history as well (maybe a comments section at the end where interesting factoids could be recorded). There could also be space allowed for those boats from the 'development' classes to record some of the details, this should not be a mandatory requirement but surely we're about the recording and preservation of dinghy history too.

Best of all - these could be held on the web so that everyone can see all the details. It's a great idea, can be implemented without any great hassles and best of all - can even allow and extra field for a secondary 4 digit PY!

Chris...I'm a real convert after yesterday to the views on old v new rigs. Not cotton v dacron v mylar, nor wood v alloy v carbon but just as you said, the rig in its totality. I spent yesterday trying to think how to get some draught into what was built as a flat sail but as you so rightly say, boats of that age lacked many of the refinements that make for what we now accept as the usual degrees of sail control. It's not just a matter of tufnol cleats against the latest in high tech Ronstans, it is the lack of control that itself has to be worth a hefty slice of PY. Thinking back again to sailing 'Gently' yesterday, the simple matter of adjusting the centreboard becomes a far less exact but at the same time a more demanding exercise. (think having to unwrap the lead from around the cleat, make the adjustment, then re-wrap it...time consuming for starters).

I think the criteria set out in MJ's response over in the Tideway section is also spot on.....I think he did a great job yesterday!

D
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Re: Classic Handicaps

Post by phil58490 »

I like the idea of a classic handicap certificate for the boat. I am soon going to be the proud owner of a Solo that is equipped with wooden spars and original (50 year old) sail. My intention would be to use the original rig in favourable conditions but to fly a modern rig when the sailing conditions are more challenging. The Solo being a one design hull I would happily accept a modern handicap with the modern rig but I think that a concessionary handicap for using the whole of the original rig would be fair. I think it would be easy enough for anyone to spot which rig I was using and handicap accordingly.

The difficulty comes when the handicapper tries to make allowances for just part of an old rig or other updates, for instance allowing for a wooden mast but a sail cut from period or modern cloth, even if the sail is true to the original design and cut.

Where do you draw the line? I will have sails that range from the sixties to the late nineties, from cotton to much more modern materials and designs. I have not tried them and don’t know if any of the permutations would work but it would be impractical to have a different handicap rating for each mast and sail combination. (Three mast and seven sails makes twenty-one possibilities!)

Having said all that, I sail for the pleasure of sailing not in the expectation of winning anything except perhaps the wooden spoon. I admire the skill and effort of others but overall like to see fair play.
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neil
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Re: Classic Handicaps

Post by neil »

I'm afraid I don't agree with this classic logbook idea at all. I know it's used in the classic car circuit, but these are organisations with money and time to make sure the records are kept. I suppose the values of classic cars are enough to put the time and effort into this, but it also strays into the areas of rivit counters who will spend hours debating authenticity.

To store this stuff online and keep it up to date will be very time consuming - you only have to look at a number of sailing related wiki site that have dramatically failed to see that this will not work without resources and need. So I would opt out of this from day one. My boats' records are with the NMMC, that's all the data that's being held.

The entire process of paperwork and clipboards leaves me cold. I do this to enjoy myself not to perpetuate an never ending existence of compliance

I like my boats, I like the events. If I have to comply with yet more form filing and justification then count me out - if I refuse to have a logbook will you stop me from racing?

Many of the CVRDA boats don't even have a class measurement certificate, we work on trust. This trust will be undermined by administration and a paper trail.

I like the pragmatic approach developed by the CVRDA. It does not treat classes or groups of boat in a class as an homogeneous lump. It allows the oddities, the aged and the quirky to come along to play (along with their boats). There will be no place for the outliers.

I know what I get in terms of a handicap from a CVRDA event. If I went to a non CVRDA classic then I'd hope that a suitable handicap would be offered, rather than a numer picked off a table based on my boat being similar to another, based on data that's not significant in any way.

I don't think the CVRDA should ever release a set of PYs for the entire Classic Circuit as this will just provide a bland, linear approach. We've always offered them as advisory with clubs to use them if they wish.

We are already seeing posts about what's the boat to buy to win - again this is not what the CVRDA is about. The aims were to allow owners of old boats to get together and race with like minded people. This emphasis on handicap, logbooks and the associated administration overhead will detract those of us without the budget or need to get the best handicap we can, just to meet a false ideal that winning is everything.
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