Neil, I think what you think I'm suggesting is rather more complex and admin heavy than what I think I'm suggesting! I wasn't thinking of anything which added layers of admin to anything - merely a way of making the system LESS based on one size fits all. If someone sailing a class which no one has ever heard of, or is a one off, or is as original, can come to somewhere like the Nationals, sail a few races and from that work out a handicap that seems fair, then that handicap can then be carried over to other meetings, rather than starting again from the base handicap for that class. If we take Shoestring as an example - we start with a Hornet handicap, which is plainly wrong for the boat. We can, over a few races, work out a handicap which is closer to being fair. Rather than Roger then having to convince a handicapper at every meeting he takes the boat to that it doesn't warrent a normal Hornet handicap, he can point to a card (or maybe just a line on a list alongside the standard handicap) and say "This is what I sail off".
It is simply a way of making sure boats don't all get lumped together as one, and has nothing to do with measurement certificates or anything else of that ilk. Maybe expanding the handicap list to include individual boats which regularly take part using handicaps which are different to the norm would make more sense? That would be very easy to do, and wouldn't include too many boats currently. Wouldn't stop anyone taking part, and wouldn't stop other handicaps being adjusted to suit, and a note made of it where it can be accessed by all.
Classic Handicaps
Re: Classic Handicaps
Rupert
Re: Classic Handicaps
I already keep what is in effect a cvrda classic logbook as I've got a spreadsheet with all the boats and helms I've got results for and what handicap we used and where they came overall with the occasional note about allowances (e.g. wooden mast, small jib not genoa, singlehanded etc). This then gives us a handicap starting point for the boat's next outing and feeds the handicap list on the website.
It's much simpler than actually printing anything but I am aiming to generate more info for the handicaps in the dinghy database on the website, maybe listing individual boats against each class entry.
I've just finished updating with 2012 results and am also going to look at some stats - any guesses on most successful helm or boat or boat with most outings over the years since 1999?
It's much simpler than actually printing anything but I am aiming to generate more info for the handicaps in the dinghy database on the website, maybe listing individual boats against each class entry.
I've just finished updating with 2012 results and am also going to look at some stats - any guesses on most successful helm or boat or boat with most outings over the years since 1999?
(Half Cut and What a Lark Removals Ltd)
Re: Classic Handicaps
Boat with the most outings will be fascinating. Helm and crew with most outings I can make a guess at, but they have sailed 2 boats regularly, so the boat might not belong to them.
I worked out a couple of years ago which boat was the most successful (it was a choice of 2 - both were at Bough Beech, which was nice), but that boat hasn't done much since, so not sure if she has been overtaken. Same for the helm, but he has sailed other boats since.
I worked out a couple of years ago which boat was the most successful (it was a choice of 2 - both were at Bough Beech, which was nice), but that boat hasn't done much since, so not sure if she has been overtaken. Same for the helm, but he has sailed other boats since.
Rupert
Re: Classic Handicaps
Re: Cotton vs Dacron.
Speaking for myself hypothetical anyway since I would have absolutly no intention of sailing my pristine laundered cottons in anything but the driest, mud free, lightest conditions. Certainly wouldn't sail them hard in race, the Dacrons would go on. Would anyone be mad enough to sail decent cottons hard?
Kev
Speaking for myself hypothetical anyway since I would have absolutly no intention of sailing my pristine laundered cottons in anything but the driest, mud free, lightest conditions. Certainly wouldn't sail them hard in race, the Dacrons would go on. Would anyone be mad enough to sail decent cottons hard?
Kev
-
SoggyBadger
- Posts: 282
- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:39 pm
- Location: Staffordshire
Re: Classic Handicaps
I suppose it depends on whether or not you regard the phrase "decent cottons" as an oxymoronkfz wrote:Would anyone be mad enough to sail decent cottons hard?
Best wishes
SB
SB
Re: Classic Handicaps
Several of us like to use our vintage sails and rigs in vintage events, when else could you use them? Not a lot of point having them otherwise. Of course in everyday club racing I use modern sails etc. I have used cotton in quite strong winds and they are fine. On the other hand I have broken two wooden masts by not using cotton in strong winds.
-
alan williams
- Posts: 1650
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:44 pm
- Location: Devon
Re: Classic Handicaps
Hi
I'm with Neil on this one. This year I opened up a can of worms by asking a question of a club as to whether I could race one of my boats in a National Championship. I expected a simple yes or no as to the question. It had been thought that as my boat was an ex squad boat, which were normally never measured, although dozens from the same mould had been. The class itself felt that it was Ok. The club in question passed this matter to ISAF for consultation. The result was that there was no provision for this globally. Result class is now looking at grand fathering these boats which all measured at the time those rules were current, but were not measured for several reasons. It is putting a device (maybe a revised measurement certificate), to allow these boats to race. Shortly after this a very old measurement form was found for my boat the number had been recorded wrongly and two certificates had been issued to it's sister ship. I now have a certificate. However I feel that if it has a tail, wangs it, walks on fourlegs and barks it's a dog. This is also the criteria that I feel should apply to the CVRDA. Why do we need a certificate to police are racing we have a handicap committee and at each event handicaps are adjusted.Why tamper " if it an't broke don't fix it".
Cheers Al
I'm with Neil on this one. This year I opened up a can of worms by asking a question of a club as to whether I could race one of my boats in a National Championship. I expected a simple yes or no as to the question. It had been thought that as my boat was an ex squad boat, which were normally never measured, although dozens from the same mould had been. The class itself felt that it was Ok. The club in question passed this matter to ISAF for consultation. The result was that there was no provision for this globally. Result class is now looking at grand fathering these boats which all measured at the time those rules were current, but were not measured for several reasons. It is putting a device (maybe a revised measurement certificate), to allow these boats to race. Shortly after this a very old measurement form was found for my boat the number had been recorded wrongly and two certificates had been issued to it's sister ship. I now have a certificate. However I feel that if it has a tail, wangs it, walks on fourlegs and barks it's a dog. This is also the criteria that I feel should apply to the CVRDA. Why do we need a certificate to police are racing we have a handicap committee and at each event handicaps are adjusted.Why tamper " if it an't broke don't fix it".
Cheers Al
Re: Classic Handicaps
Indeed. It would be quite difficult. My merlin 507 sails with a variety of handicaps. The MROA suggest a set of age related numbers for club mixed class racing. The de May series use a set of numbers that relate a bit to age and a bit to state of tune, I have had to sail at some meetings off scratch ie the py of a modern merlin, and the CVRDA use a different system. In an ideal world they should all tally but they certainly don't. I also sail it with different rigs for different things. Club racing its more modern than vintage sailing. Since I broke the wooden mast I have had to use the ali mast all the time so I could say I use quite a variety of combinations of rigs etc. I would need several pieces of paper to cover them all.
Re: Classic Handicaps
For those of you who were reading comments that developed on the "measurement certificate" thread here are links (below) to some pics on photobucket, showing the 1965 and 1966 PY. Apologies for the quality, taken with my phone and purposely not rotated to read upright as it makes pics smaller and harder to read. If anyone wants clarification of a particular number please ask, as I am keeping the magazines handy.
It's interesting to note the different numbers allocated for cotton and terylene, (if you can see the note at the bottom of one of the pages of the '66 numbers)
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x34 ... AG2099.jpg
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x34 ... AG2097.jpg
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x34 ... AG2096.jpg
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x34 ... AG2095.jpg
It's interesting to note the different numbers allocated for cotton and terylene, (if you can see the note at the bottom of one of the pages of the '66 numbers)
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x34 ... AG2099.jpg
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x34 ... AG2097.jpg
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x34 ... AG2096.jpg
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x34 ... AG2095.jpg
Sami.
-
bornagainmothie
- Posts: 222
- Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:28 pm
Re: Classic Handicaps
While on the subject of handicaps can I offer a list of age/design related Int Moth ratings...
This guide was written by the legendary Hydrofoiling Pensioner, Colin Newman in about 2005 and was supported by IMCA UK as a fair conversion for older designs to be sailed in handicap events.
PY Numbers for International Moths Competing in Handicap Races
Over the last twenty five years the International Moth has developed from a boat that in 1980 was racing on level terms with an Enterprise to a narrow, ultra lightweight skiff almost as fast as a Contender on handicap. Good Moth sailors in modern boats have no difficulty sometimes beating Fireballs and similar boats on the water. It is discouraging for the owner of, for instance, a Magnum 8 to be expected to race in a club fleet off the same handicap as the latest design of modern Moth. Back in 1988 when the Magnum 8 was the fastest design of Moth it had a Portsmouth Yardstick correctly handicapping it just a little faster than a Laser. The RYA list of PY numbers carries a footnote that reads ‘with Development classes where the Portsmouth Number is likely to vary depending on the age and design of the boats, clubs should consider adjusting the Number where it does not reflect the performance of a particular boat (excluding crew skill factor)’. This adjustment does not always take place because the Moth sailor in an old design of boat cannot provide any evidence of what the handicap PY Number of his or her boat was at the time it was designed. A complicating factor is the change in 1996 to PY numbers based on 1000 rather than 100, with no obvious way of converting from old numbers to new. This statement by the IMCA(UK) aims to provide an authoritative set of recommendations for the PY number to use with older boats, plus some argument to back up the proposed Numbers.
Throughout the 1980s the Magnum designs of Moth were the all-conquering, state of the art boats at that time. Probably few Magnum 3 or 4 Moths are still being raced, but in 1982 their PY was the same as an Enterprise and an OK. Today these boats have PYs of 1116 or recently, 1111 in the case of the OK. It would thus be reasonable to give a Magnum 3 a PY of 1115. By 1985 the Magnum 5 had become a slightly faster boat than the Magnum 3 and its handicap was now the same as a Wayfarer, 1099 today. The development of the Magnum 8 was a major step forward and the Moth moved from being slower than a Laser to somewhat faster, about the speed of a Scorpion, nearly that of a Phantom and marginally faster than a Lark or an Albacore. Compared with the PY Numbers for these boats it suggests a PY of about 1060 for a Magnum 8. By the early 1990s Moth development had taken a quantum leap forward with the first generation of significantly narrower boats and the advent of carbon masts. Moths such as the Magnum 9, Pearce 6, Blitz and early Axeman designes proved to be comparable in speed to the Tasar, the Laser11, and the Merlin Rocket, all of which have current, PY Numbers between 1021 and 1024. However in 1992 the Kestrel and the Marauder raced off the same handicap though they now have numbers between 1034 and 1042. Hence this generation of Moth might be handicapped fairly with a Number set at 1020, assuming they now have modern T foils, not available when these boats first hit the water. Finally, by 1995 the modern generation of narrow ultra lightweight skiff Moths with T foil rudders had begun to establish themselves as the fastest designs such as the Skippy1, the Magnum 9.9, the Axeman 6 and 7 or even more recently, the world beating, Australian Hungry Tiger. It is these Moths for which their current PY Number of 1000 is appropriate. Hence in Summary the following recommendations can be made:
PY 1000
Hungry Tiger, Axeman 6 and 7, Skippy 1,2 and 3, Magnum 9.9 plus any other designs first built after 1995.
PY 1020
Magnum 9 and 9.5, Axeman 2 to5, Pearce 6, Blitz 2 to 3, Australian Axeman and equivalent designs first built between 1989 and 1995 such as the Ghoul 3.
PY 1060
Magnum 8, Axeman 1, Blitz1, Ghoul 1 and 2, and Gentleman Jim
PY 1100
Magnum 5 and 6
PY 1115
Magnum 3 and 4 and any other designs of Moth still racing built in the early 1980s or before.
This guide was written by the legendary Hydrofoiling Pensioner, Colin Newman in about 2005 and was supported by IMCA UK as a fair conversion for older designs to be sailed in handicap events.
PY Numbers for International Moths Competing in Handicap Races
Over the last twenty five years the International Moth has developed from a boat that in 1980 was racing on level terms with an Enterprise to a narrow, ultra lightweight skiff almost as fast as a Contender on handicap. Good Moth sailors in modern boats have no difficulty sometimes beating Fireballs and similar boats on the water. It is discouraging for the owner of, for instance, a Magnum 8 to be expected to race in a club fleet off the same handicap as the latest design of modern Moth. Back in 1988 when the Magnum 8 was the fastest design of Moth it had a Portsmouth Yardstick correctly handicapping it just a little faster than a Laser. The RYA list of PY numbers carries a footnote that reads ‘with Development classes where the Portsmouth Number is likely to vary depending on the age and design of the boats, clubs should consider adjusting the Number where it does not reflect the performance of a particular boat (excluding crew skill factor)’. This adjustment does not always take place because the Moth sailor in an old design of boat cannot provide any evidence of what the handicap PY Number of his or her boat was at the time it was designed. A complicating factor is the change in 1996 to PY numbers based on 1000 rather than 100, with no obvious way of converting from old numbers to new. This statement by the IMCA(UK) aims to provide an authoritative set of recommendations for the PY number to use with older boats, plus some argument to back up the proposed Numbers.
Throughout the 1980s the Magnum designs of Moth were the all-conquering, state of the art boats at that time. Probably few Magnum 3 or 4 Moths are still being raced, but in 1982 their PY was the same as an Enterprise and an OK. Today these boats have PYs of 1116 or recently, 1111 in the case of the OK. It would thus be reasonable to give a Magnum 3 a PY of 1115. By 1985 the Magnum 5 had become a slightly faster boat than the Magnum 3 and its handicap was now the same as a Wayfarer, 1099 today. The development of the Magnum 8 was a major step forward and the Moth moved from being slower than a Laser to somewhat faster, about the speed of a Scorpion, nearly that of a Phantom and marginally faster than a Lark or an Albacore. Compared with the PY Numbers for these boats it suggests a PY of about 1060 for a Magnum 8. By the early 1990s Moth development had taken a quantum leap forward with the first generation of significantly narrower boats and the advent of carbon masts. Moths such as the Magnum 9, Pearce 6, Blitz and early Axeman designes proved to be comparable in speed to the Tasar, the Laser11, and the Merlin Rocket, all of which have current, PY Numbers between 1021 and 1024. However in 1992 the Kestrel and the Marauder raced off the same handicap though they now have numbers between 1034 and 1042. Hence this generation of Moth might be handicapped fairly with a Number set at 1020, assuming they now have modern T foils, not available when these boats first hit the water. Finally, by 1995 the modern generation of narrow ultra lightweight skiff Moths with T foil rudders had begun to establish themselves as the fastest designs such as the Skippy1, the Magnum 9.9, the Axeman 6 and 7 or even more recently, the world beating, Australian Hungry Tiger. It is these Moths for which their current PY Number of 1000 is appropriate. Hence in Summary the following recommendations can be made:
PY 1000
Hungry Tiger, Axeman 6 and 7, Skippy 1,2 and 3, Magnum 9.9 plus any other designs first built after 1995.
PY 1020
Magnum 9 and 9.5, Axeman 2 to5, Pearce 6, Blitz 2 to 3, Australian Axeman and equivalent designs first built between 1989 and 1995 such as the Ghoul 3.
PY 1060
Magnum 8, Axeman 1, Blitz1, Ghoul 1 and 2, and Gentleman Jim
PY 1100
Magnum 5 and 6
PY 1115
Magnum 3 and 4 and any other designs of Moth still racing built in the early 1980s or before.
Re: Classic Handicaps
oohh so a GP14 would be 106 with cottons but 103 with 'modern' sails
and as thats 1964 that would be with a spinnaker aswell....... but with Jib not genoa
and with wooden spars
GOD how slow is #7 gonna be with no spinnaker!! 110????
and as thats 1964 that would be with a spinnaker aswell....... but with Jib not genoa
and with wooden spars
GOD how slow is #7 gonna be with no spinnaker!! 110????
GP14 - 7
GP14 -ex 23
GP14 - 13796
Enterprise - 20059
GP14 -ex 23
GP14 - 13796
Enterprise - 20059
Re: Classic Handicaps
110 might not be that far off, Moggy - bring her along and we'll give it a go!
And thinking about it, shows why cvrda handicaps should never be compared to the normal RYA system, and why they really don't work when trying to handicap old boats when racing against new ones. We have a system where, by giving points for old sails, old gear, old stuff in general, we are saying that you don't need to get your boat in racing trim to do well - we want the boat which is as original to stand as much chance of winning as one which has been fettled. I have been told (both as a positive and a negative, by different people) that our system makes no sense. But it works, for us.
You can win in a £100 beach boat, or a more modern racing machine, or in a boat restored to be as she was. In order to do this, it is necessary to judge each boat on its own merits, rather than having bandings or set, firm figures for boat types, as it is these which allow people to get what the cvrda is all about rather wrong. If you come along with the thought that you are there to win, and therefore need a boat that will be a yardstick beater, then chances are you'll be disappointed, firstly because there is very little logic as to what type of boat does well, but mostly because you'll be missing the point - people own the boats for many obscure reasons, ranging from "it is all I can afford" to "I just HAD to have her", and they then get together to race, as they are racing boats, and to chat and have a beer or 2. And people have usually forgotten (or never knew) who won before they get home, but they remember the sailing, and the lunch, rather longer.
It might sound odd coming from me, as I often don't do too badly, but my boats are either chosen for love (the Firefly), quirkiness or cheapness (I guess my current steed, the Minisail, covers both of those). I admit I then try hard when on the water - I enjoy the day more if I do. I'm really not sure what I'd choose to race as a PY beater. Pat would simply start knocking points off without me knowing, anyway!
I really don't think this would translate to the world outside the cvrda.
I can chat about handicaps all day long - in this, I am rare in the cvrda. Most of our regular sailors couldn't care less, but I hope that the work that the handicap committee does behind the scenes means they can carry on not caring, and simply reap the benefits of getting a race result which will get close to their ability, and so add a little extra to an event which has been fun for many other and diverse reasons.
And thinking about it, shows why cvrda handicaps should never be compared to the normal RYA system, and why they really don't work when trying to handicap old boats when racing against new ones. We have a system where, by giving points for old sails, old gear, old stuff in general, we are saying that you don't need to get your boat in racing trim to do well - we want the boat which is as original to stand as much chance of winning as one which has been fettled. I have been told (both as a positive and a negative, by different people) that our system makes no sense. But it works, for us.
You can win in a £100 beach boat, or a more modern racing machine, or in a boat restored to be as she was. In order to do this, it is necessary to judge each boat on its own merits, rather than having bandings or set, firm figures for boat types, as it is these which allow people to get what the cvrda is all about rather wrong. If you come along with the thought that you are there to win, and therefore need a boat that will be a yardstick beater, then chances are you'll be disappointed, firstly because there is very little logic as to what type of boat does well, but mostly because you'll be missing the point - people own the boats for many obscure reasons, ranging from "it is all I can afford" to "I just HAD to have her", and they then get together to race, as they are racing boats, and to chat and have a beer or 2. And people have usually forgotten (or never knew) who won before they get home, but they remember the sailing, and the lunch, rather longer.
It might sound odd coming from me, as I often don't do too badly, but my boats are either chosen for love (the Firefly), quirkiness or cheapness (I guess my current steed, the Minisail, covers both of those). I admit I then try hard when on the water - I enjoy the day more if I do. I'm really not sure what I'd choose to race as a PY beater. Pat would simply start knocking points off without me knowing, anyway!
I really don't think this would translate to the world outside the cvrda.
I can chat about handicaps all day long - in this, I am rare in the cvrda. Most of our regular sailors couldn't care less, but I hope that the work that the handicap committee does behind the scenes means they can carry on not caring, and simply reap the benefits of getting a race result which will get close to their ability, and so add a little extra to an event which has been fun for many other and diverse reasons.
Rupert
Re: Classic Handicaps
I have no idea whether this suggestion would work but in a previous existence I was a member of a golf society where if you won a competition your handicap was reduced by a set amount. If you won again it was reduced again. The argument was that you eventually found your correct level. At the end of the season those who over the year had their handicaps reduced (by winning) got a little bit added back on for the following season as did those who had not featured at all in the podium places. This was on a season long basis. (In reality golf handicaps change after every competition in which you take part with a fraction of a shot being given to every person over the standard score for the day which is carried on to the next week/competition. Those who win lose a fraction of a shot. Those in the middle buffer zone stay where they are.) If the former situation was applied to our CVRDA handicaps how do you think that system would pan out. Clearly this type of system would involve a mix of boat handicap (in golf there is no "equipment" handicap) and personal handicaps and would take some time to settle down but the season's starting point would be the CVRDA handicaps assigned at present. I wonder (and I know it is complicated and perhaps a lot of work for Pat) if for a season this could be run in parallel to the handicap situation we have at present to see what difference it would make to results - no need to flag this up as we went along but just out of interest. Shout me down if you wish.
Re: Classic Handicaps
Dunno, there's a few of us... But I have two thoughts.Rupert wrote:I can chat about handicaps all day long - in this, I am rare in the cvrda..
The first is that looking at CVRDA racing that I've seen the truth is that boat speed is utterly irrelevant for the majority of the fleet and results are almost entirely defined by how well people point the boat. And I guess a lot of us race because racing is more fun than sailing about randomly rather than for the sake of the results. I have a modern boat for that..
The second, and slightly less cheering thought, is that I think there's a possibility of a culture collision between the CVRDA mainstream and some of the "old" fleet Merlin types (as opposed to those with more mature boats). I got much bashed on the gunwhales earlier this year by an aggressive Merlin sailor who just couldn't fathom that just because he could luff his Merlin up hard on the start line as taught at RYA coaching sessions, it didn't mean that my Moth could respond without my foils stalling out and drifting into him sideways... I suppose I should have protested but I couldn't be bothered to cast about for witnesses so I just did some turns to shut him up...