Merlin No.8 on the 'bay

[Obscured by clouds]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Merlin-Rocket ... 1c369bc9b2

[iconic]

I bookmarked that too....good looking boats..and a bit of provenance with this one

[chris]

Being just a little hopeful or even selfish I hope this stays central or west country. There are already a few true Merlins, as in the original merlin design, in the area and I know of another that may come to a local member too. I have felt that since the Vintage Merlin wing has gone predominately carbon and is even allowing new build 'classic' in that to sail an early ribbed boat in original condition in their vintage wing is far from being enjoyable, Several others with ribbed merlins feel the same and I'm hoping to encourage building up a small fleet so that we can get together from time to time to sail together. Hopefully a new owner will not modernize it and feel as we do - please keep in touch and join in.

[Obscured by clouds]

surely a new built boat is a new built boat, classic or not. It might not be competitive when compared to the latest go-fast designs, but to spend an equivalent amount on an old design, just to get an edge in a classic fleet just smacks of a dog-in-the-manger mentality . [IMHO]

[chris]

Indeed!

[davidh]

I think Chris is being very 'Gently' in his comments on this. I'm sorry but I cannot see the good in the direction that too much of the main 'classic Merlin' scene is taking. At Bosham, the winning 'classic' Merlin, complete with bang up to date all carbon rig, didn't just 'WIN' - they could have pretty much sailed it on the headline 2013 RYA PY for a MR and it would still have taken home the silverware. I mean no dis-respect to the crew who turned up with a well prepared boat and then sailed it superbly - yes, they deserved their win and I'd not want to take anything away from them.

But there has to be more to the 'classic scene' that this, or to the comments that Chris alluded to. I'm now 60% of the way through the new MR book and so know that there have been some amazing stories in development terms within the class, yet the majority of them are totally ignored in favour of the lure of a Holt 'Passing Cloud' or another Proctor IXb. I've seen some true milestone boats go to the bonfire - good boats that really would excel on the classic scene but because they are neither of the two designs already named, they are 'passed over' and sent off to the Viking funeral.

I hate to say it but I really do believe that in the end if things continue along this path that the Classic MR scene (which my researches show as being the first of the restricted development classes to start thinking about their boats of yesteryear) are taking - that in the end it will end up having a negative impact on the long term future of this part of the MRoA.

Dougal

[alan williams]

I think it's not fair play.
Cheers Al

[davidh]

Sorry Al, we're all entitled to our own opinions but the 5 letter C word is something to be used with care (given the wide 'audience' that comes to the CVRDA forum). Given that you've not been to the various meetings on the subject, nor have all the facts at your disposal, I'd offer some well meant advice to you to 'amend' your posting. If it were a flagrant breach of the rules (I think we'd all accept that as defining that 5 letter C word) then there would be the option open to lodge a Rule 69 Protest. That has not happened, nor do I see one in the future.

What does that tell us. You might well say, as I did, that the current direction is questionable. Equally, you might think that this is just market forces at work. Some would see this as an incentive to get right in there with this sort of thing, others (and I speak personally here) might well take these changes as a reason NOT be be a part - my worry would be that if fairly 'moderate' folk start to think twice, then there has to be something amiss.

However amiss that might be, Ch***ing it isn't

All the best

Dougal

[Obscured by clouds]

Well, I for one will be keeping MR 2404 [Moon Rocket] as near to original as I can, even to the extent of getting hold of some original tufnol cam-cleats

BTW I would be interested im what you might have to say about those Noakes designs, not thta many were built, and as far as I can see the only ones with buoyancy tanks as opposed to bags. I've never seriously raced julia dream against other Merlins, but the design does'nt seem at all 'slow' to me....

[chrismartin3583]

The majority - if not all - of the modernised classic Merlins are done to win on the Thames, where they are still extremely fast even relative to new boats. The side effect of this is that the classic scene is skewed towards winning rather than preserving history, and some of these boats, still outclassed on any remotely open water, want to sail away from home against peer group boats - where else can they go?

The future as I see it would be to have two catergories, classic and historic, the problem or challenge is getting enough like minded boats in each catergory to make it worthwhile.

There is more to this Thames racing than IXbs and passing clouds too. if you go to Tamesis, Upper Thames or just about any club with a Merlin fleet you'll see the whole spectrum of designs, Martines are particularly sought after, Adur 7s go well as do some of the early wide boats that you'll struggle to find anywhere else. All this in addition the full complement of Proctor designs. A lot of these boats would certainly be in the great dinghy park in the sky were the racing for this class of boat not so strong in the Thames valley.

The other aspect to modernisation is sheer practicality. If you obtain a hull with no rig what are your options? The chances of finding a 100% suitable ally mast are slim to none. You can get a second hand carbon mast for less than the new price for a hog stepped ally, or a deck stepped M1 for next to nothing. You then need sails et etc. In this case keeping it original just doesn't make sense.

It seems that there are two camps in vintage racing, I think some people need to face up that the one form is neither better nor worse than the other, just different.

[Ed]

The chances of finding a 100% suitable ally mast are slim to none

Really?

I wouldn't of thought it was that hard.....I think I have two (or even three) original ali classic merlin masts at home.

Was looking at them this w/end and considering cutting them up for scrap. I don't think finding original gear is the issue. The issue is that they simply do not have the performance of a modern tin mast....so wouldn't be suitable for the Thames-valley guys who are looking for performance levels to compete against modern boats.

Once you decide you are looking for a mast that gives reasonable 'modern' performance, then of course you need a newish ali mast, and then for the reasons you say, carbon might well be a feasible alternative.

Personally, and this is just me and is in NO way CVRDA policy or thought....

First, I would say that this is not a new question....I remember having this very discussion with a guy with a MR Proctor MkIXb, at Bourne End week, maybe 10,11,12 years ago.

I have no problem with either approach and I could happily build a boat (with a clear conscience) to either school of thought. If I sailed at one of the Thames clubs, I would certainly want to sail a MR and would be more than tempted by a classic boat if it was competitive, and if that meant fully carbonising it, and I had the funding, then so be it. What those guys are doing is 'River sailing' and it just happens that the classic designs are competitive, so they can extend the working life of a classic boat into current racing, albeit with the addition of carbon/modern sails etc. I think this is a good thing. The Raters have done the same thing on the river for over 100 years. I would be happy to be involved in this

But......it isn't what the CVRDA do....or is about.

What we do is try to provide a way for classic and vintage boats to race together, for the purpose of providing fair and fun racing. We want to enjoy and celebrate the boats for being what they are. We want to play with them to get the best out of them we can, largely within the original ethos of the class at the time it was built.

But let's take care with the line of complete 'originality'.....I don't see anyone using galvanised rigging....or twisted cotton sheets...and only a few of us want to play with cotton sails. We sail in wetsuits not oilies. I really admire those of us who want to try and get as close to original as possible, but it isn't what everyone wants, where a healthy dose of pragmatism is mixed into our boat-preparation.....but still, that is a long way from a full re-build with carbon, or building a new boat to an old design.

The CVRDA has always tried to, as much as possible, to cater for all approaches to boat-restoration and racing-ethos. But the Thames Valley Merlins have always stretched our understanding of 'classic' simply because, they are not being raced as 'classic' boats, but as 'River' boats. They are not about being 'old' but about being 'fast on the river'.

This is why the CVRDA always set out to have a 'sliding' and 'adjustable' handicap system, so that we could allow any boats that fulfilled our age criteria to race, whatever their state of development, under a handicap that was appropriate to give fair racing for all. This was (and in my opinion still is) the key and point for what makes our racing different.

We value the older boats and aim to give them a handicap that allows them to be competitive, even though they are not so developed. When the handicap committee sits (not really on it these days, so I presume) we try to establish handicaps that allow a vintage Merlin with cotton sails to be truly competitive with a re-built, stiffened MkIX full carbonized. This is key and has always been the real key point of misunderstanding between the CVRDA and the normal racing fraternity. This means you can spend £1000 making your boat faster and we will then do our damndest to handicap that back out and still give the original vintage boat the advantage. This goes contrary to every firm-held belief that they 'racers' hold. But it is what makes our racing different. So, please do develop your boat if you want to, to make it better fun for you to sail, but if you do it, to try and 'win' races, we will do our damndest to remove that advantage.

But this is the CVRDA....and we are only one part of the Classic Dinghy scene. Other organisers, such as Bosham Classic Regatta and the MROA will have to work out for themselves, what they and their helms want out of their racing. I would love to suggest to them that we have got it right, because even though the original concept was conceived 14 years ago, it still works and as we know provides good racing and fun, whilst conserving our historic craft, which is, in my opinion an important aspect of what we are about.

However, I am not sure if they will be able to follow our 'ethos' in this. If classic sailing grows, then it will have to interest new owners/helms and bring them into the sport. They will come with money in their pockets and a want to win races. The age-old concept of spending money to improve your race results is just too strong with the majority of the racing fraternity. They will want to spend money, update boats and win races and you will get results such the last Bosham event.

This isn't about the rules, but about the ethos of what we do.

cheers

eib

[Obscured by clouds]

That's a fair point Chris, for that given situation. The problem lies, as you have pointed out, in mixing the 'modernised' classic fleet with what you term the 'historic' fleet at any other situation/event in which a level playing field no longer exists. Maybe the idea of having two different subsets is the way to go.

One for the committee to ponder on I suspect.

[Ed]

The CVRDA committee can only control CVRDA events.

I think we know how we do ours.....but we can't have any control over other events....that's up to them!

If you enter a race, then you make an agreement to race under their rules, no point in beefing about it.

eib

[Obscured by clouds]

The CVRDA committee can only control CVRDA events.



eib

Sorry Ed, I was referring to MROA not the CVRDA. I thank 'we' have got it right as you elucidated in your post [which crossed with mine]

Tony

[Stephen Hawkins]

It is interesting to note that there is a brand new Uffa King in the N12 fleet, built by Tim Gatti called Gruffalo. It looks a lovely piece of work and it really is a credit to him, with a wooden mast and boom, etc. Not sure which fleet he is sailing it in, but I doubt if he is using cotton sails : )

Cheers

Steve Hawkins