Horse.

General chat about boats
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trebor
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Horse.

Post by trebor » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:54 pm

on both my Aquabat and Minisprint their is an adjustable horse, they both run to jamming cleats, is their a reason for jamming cleats ie can you adjust them on the water? and why would you adjust them on the water?
Robert
Minisprint 4230
Tinker Traveller 160
Mirror 61147 Anastasia
http://www.aquabatdinghy.co.uk

JimC
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Re: Horse.

Post by JimC » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:46 pm

trebor wrote: why would you adjust them on the water?
Principally if the weather changes when you're out there. The traditional style horse (as opposed to the way modern boats are setup) has the horse typically left loose for lighter conditions and tight for stronger.Basically it affects how much leech tension the mainsheet puts on the sail when its sheeted in a given amount.

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trebor
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Re: Horse.

Post by trebor » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:32 pm

Hi Jimc, Why ? do some of the stainless steel slides have an adjustable car ? for similar reasons to horse? an Enterprise at club uses this system.
Robert
Minisprint 4230
Tinker Traveller 160
Mirror 61147 Anastasia
http://www.aquabatdinghy.co.uk

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PeterV
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Re: Horse.

Post by PeterV » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:52 pm

On a rope horse the jammers allow you to have the horse, usually called a traveller, loose to centre the boom or tight which causes the mainsheet block to move out more to the sides of the boat. However, a single hander always needs the mainsail off the centre, so the traveller should always be tight. If you look at a Laser you will find they have the traveller so tight that the mainsheet block has trouble getting over the tiller, and it is kept this way in all conditions. In boats like the enterprise the original set up was to let the boom move away from centre in stronger winds and the mainsheet can still pull the boom down. Nowadays the kicker is a lot more powerful and this pulls the boom down, so the horse is never moved away from the centreline.
PeterV
Finn K197 & GBR564
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davidh
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Re: Horse.

Post by davidh » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:11 pm

You also need to accept that more modern rigs (though well within the age group that is cvrda legal) work in a very different nature. If the boat is equipped with a hoop, then the rig itself works in a different way. The trouble is - the sails are cut for a very different set up (which is why MR sails cut for a modern rig can set so badly on an old rig). The leech is cut tighter, with the flow further aft, once afloat you use less kicker and mainsheet tension.

As an example, it is very interesting to look at a more modern rig that has been transplanted on to an older Merlin. At last years Classic Boat revival, I could look up the course and identify the boats that had been retrofitted, simply because the shape the main made was so different! As SupercrewJon and I found out - to our cost - returning the boat to the original layout, with a traveller, worked wonders BUT....... your sails need to return to that original cut (known as the 'barn door' principle) else you end up with the worse setting main since Noah tried to work the Ark to windward!

D
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paulmidd
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Re: Horse.

Post by paulmidd » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:41 pm

This is an interesting discussion as it coincides with me trying to decide how to rig the mainsheet on my Ent. It came in pretty much the original 1958 condition including the wooden spars and cotton sails by Jeckells. The mainsheet rig was simply two bronze deck-eyes screwed into the transom, with the mainsheet being led from hand via a tuffnol block shackled to one deck-eye, up to another block on the boom and terminating at the other deck-eye. I have a picture of the restored Ent #1 on Wroxham Broad sporting a new set of cotton sails courtesy of Jeckells and the sheeting arrangement appears identical to mine. I was in Jeckells over the summer and they confirmed that my sails are circa 1950s and appear the same cut as the set they made for #1. So, I don’t want to bugger about with the rig and I will reinstate the deck-eyes and simple mainsheet system for when I sail with the cotton sails.

The issue is that I also have a modern rig (mast, boom and sails bought from a chap who was converting an Ent hull into a speedboat….don’t ask) that I plan to use for when I’m not trying to show off. Hence I’m pondering on how to rig the mainsheet given the differences in rig and sail cut that have been mentioned earlier in this thread. Thoughts so far: 1) Use some sort of rope traveller clipped to the deck-eyes – perhaps adjustable, perhaps not; 2)………

Any thoughts would be welcome.
Cheers
Paul

davidh
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Re: Horse.

Post by davidh » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:23 pm

Paul,

I'll try to post the picture of the award winning renovation on a very early enterprise - that got high marks for originality and quality of finish!

D
David H

davidh
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Re: Horse.

Post by davidh » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:53 pm

A super boat, beautifully restored and fitted out and sailed with some 'classic' sailing skills.
No wonder they did so well at Bosham!

D
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Classic Boat Ent 01cvrda.jpg
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paulmidd
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Re: Horse.

Post by paulmidd » Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:57 pm

David,
Many thanks for your reply and the picture. From that and the other piccys that I've seen of 472 it looks as if they do not have a traveller and just two deck-eyes, but it's not possibe to be certain.

However, I note from your Y&Y write up of Bosham that Philip Wilson had sails specifically made. But I'm just plonking the modern rig on the old hull, so to speak, so I think I'll go down the rope traveller method first and fiddle around with sail shape until experience tells me to change the arrangement - but not at the expense of the wooden/cotton rig. Can't wait!

My 1551 is also a Moore's boat and it would be very nice to see the two boats together. But I'm now significantly north of the Border, which is not likely to change unless the Yes vote goes through :roll:
Cheers
Paul

Rupert
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Re: Horse.

Post by Rupert » Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:19 pm

Rob, the cleats on the minisail simply aren't needed. As PeterV says, it needs to be tight all the time.

On the Enterprise, the mainsheet should be as near to the middle as the rules allow.
Rupert

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trebor
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Re: Horse.

Post by trebor » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:57 pm

Hi Rupert, The 4 fairleads and 2 cam cleats, seem a touch over engineered, I suppose it helps to de-power if you allow the traveller to go slack, I could try this with Aquabat, when trying to land.
Robert
Minisprint 4230
Tinker Traveller 160
Mirror 61147 Anastasia
http://www.aquabatdinghy.co.uk

Rupert
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Re: Horse.

Post by Rupert » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:04 pm

Just dumping the kicker will help you depower - letting the horse off will simply give you another rope to tangle round the rudder.
Rupert

ent228
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Re: Horse.

Post by ent228 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:28 pm

My old Enterprise was 228 and had a short 6" length of what looked like aluminium sailtrack screwed onto the top of the transom. It had a nylon sailslide in it and a brass screw at each end with a wooden block to keep the sailslide in. This worked well but don't know if it was original. Boat was 1957.

SingTheNightSong
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Re: Horse.

Post by SingTheNightSong » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:04 am

E110 has a full-length track across the transom controlled as to allowable mainsheet movement by a pair of sail slides connected via a deck eye and retained by a cam-cleat on each quarter
(pics to follow)

ent228
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Re: Horse.

Post by ent228 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:31 am

I was going to convert my old Ent to the full width traveller, but never got around to it. The boom I had was wooden and seemed very flexible so I felt I needed the ability to hold down the end of the boom on a close reach.

I did try a full width traveller centremain on it using lots of string, but the boom felt it was going to break so went back to aft sheeting. Now I would use a Laser style setup.

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