I'm certainly enjoying hearing from current FD sailors, and would love to hear more.
And Julian, a beer is yours - I would dearly love to have a go. 2 beers, even, as I'm pretty sure Charlie, after his 18' Jollyboat experiences, will be dying for a go too.
FD Class in UK
Re: FD Class in UK
Rupert
Re: FD Class in UK
Hi Julian,
I'm not sure that I'd agree with you about the fact that the FDs were never plentiful - when I was a lad they had class racing, with good turn outs for the FDs, on a mid-week evening! Just along the coast at Locks they had a strong fleet too..... so they were there. But that was admittedly a long time ago.
The rise and rise (back then) of the 505 may have played it's part.....plus the success of the Osprey, then the Javelin, there was lots of choice for anyone wanting a big beast of a boat. It was always interesting to take part in the FDs v 505 event at Worthing, for it highlighted the growing difference between the two boats.
As both classes contract further, it could well be that the Classic scene would be a way to ensure that there are still events aimed at giving them a great 'sail'. I know that the Fastsail initiative fell apart, but something similar for the bigger classics might just be what is needed to keep a nucleus of boats in racing trim.
As one who has recently been sailing both the FD and 505, I'm puzzled as to the 'why' we're not seeing more classics out afloat. At Bosham last year there were a brace of 12m Sharpies and more National 18s than you could easily fit on the start line, but not an FD or 505 in sight, despite the area being 'rich' in potential boats. Hence my earlier comments on there being other factors at work.
I'm not going to loose sight of this - with the new classics column in Y&Y, maybe there is a chance to help promote a get together somewhere!
Rgds
D
I'm not sure that I'd agree with you about the fact that the FDs were never plentiful - when I was a lad they had class racing, with good turn outs for the FDs, on a mid-week evening! Just along the coast at Locks they had a strong fleet too..... so they were there. But that was admittedly a long time ago.
The rise and rise (back then) of the 505 may have played it's part.....plus the success of the Osprey, then the Javelin, there was lots of choice for anyone wanting a big beast of a boat. It was always interesting to take part in the FDs v 505 event at Worthing, for it highlighted the growing difference between the two boats.
As both classes contract further, it could well be that the Classic scene would be a way to ensure that there are still events aimed at giving them a great 'sail'. I know that the Fastsail initiative fell apart, but something similar for the bigger classics might just be what is needed to keep a nucleus of boats in racing trim.
As one who has recently been sailing both the FD and 505, I'm puzzled as to the 'why' we're not seeing more classics out afloat. At Bosham last year there were a brace of 12m Sharpies and more National 18s than you could easily fit on the start line, but not an FD or 505 in sight, despite the area being 'rich' in potential boats. Hence my earlier comments on there being other factors at work.
I'm not going to loose sight of this - with the new classics column in Y&Y, maybe there is a chance to help promote a get together somewhere!
Rgds
D
David H
Re: FD Class in UK
I agree with David, when I started sailing FD's in the very early 1970's we had 10+' at my club & attracted 20+ boats for an open meeting.
It would be interesting to see what CVRDA would classify as a classic FD?
As age is not really a factor I would say one with old size kite, single clew genoas, & no carbon rig.
Boats that have been updated have a massive speed/performance/handling advantage, so would be counter productive to the whole idea of attracting/encouraging the older boats out to play.
Tony
It would be interesting to see what CVRDA would classify as a classic FD?
As age is not really a factor I would say one with old size kite, single clew genoas, & no carbon rig.
Boats that have been updated have a massive speed/performance/handling advantage, so would be counter productive to the whole idea of attracting/encouraging the older boats out to play.
Tony
Re: FD Class in UK
2 January 1972, my first ever race (Brass Monkey at Leigh on Sea sailing club) and my logbook says 'difficult getting the boat out because the whole bay was full of Dutchmen'.
PeterV
Finn K197 & GBR564
Warsash
Finn K197 & GBR564
Warsash
Re: FD Class in UK
Ha.... Peter V, I can 'share the pain' on that one!
Back in the good old days at Kiel Week, there would be maybe 50 or so Stars, then 75 FDs, then the massed ranks of 505s. We started last...and on a windy day, you didn't so much as pick the windshifts as sail to avoid all the bits floating back down wind! I don't know why I'm laughing - I ended up crewing an FD at Kiel for my sins, luckily I was able to sail with one of the very best boats and had a wonderful time!
Tony L........... I think the normal classic criteria should apply, but at the same time, more and more I see the application of common sense. So, as you pointed out, a boat that has a raking carbon rig or has been extensively modded - well, then that should sail with the modern boats.
Would love to see the boats sailing with the rest of the fleet,
D
Back in the good old days at Kiel Week, there would be maybe 50 or so Stars, then 75 FDs, then the massed ranks of 505s. We started last...and on a windy day, you didn't so much as pick the windshifts as sail to avoid all the bits floating back down wind! I don't know why I'm laughing - I ended up crewing an FD at Kiel for my sins, luckily I was able to sail with one of the very best boats and had a wonderful time!
Tony L........... I think the normal classic criteria should apply, but at the same time, more and more I see the application of common sense. So, as you pointed out, a boat that has a raking carbon rig or has been extensively modded - well, then that should sail with the modern boats.
Would love to see the boats sailing with the rest of the fleet,
D
David H
Re: FD Class in UK
We would probably stick with our guidelines of 1985 cut off as the build date but the handicapping system allows deductions to be made to take into account modernisation.Tony L. wrote:I agree with David, when I started sailing FD's in the very early 1970's we had 10+' at my club & attracted 20+ boats for an open meeting.
It would be interesting to see what CVRDA would classify as a classic FD?
As age is not really a factor I would say one with old size kite, single clew genoas, & no carbon rig.
Boats that have been updated have a massive speed/performance/handling advantage, so would be counter productive to the whole idea of attracting/encouraging the older boats out to play.
Tony
I would love to see a fleet of FDs out or even just 3 or 4
Edited to add probably. Each club can set its own criteria we just offer a guide from experience of what works.
Hornet 191 Shoestring,
Hornet 595 Demon awaiting restoration
Hornet 610 Final Fling
Hornet 353
Hornet 595 Demon awaiting restoration
Hornet 610 Final Fling
Hornet 353
Re: FD Class in UK
Roger I think when it comes to the FD there's much more to consider than simply the boats age e. g. Julian's boat (1979) has all but been fully converted so apart from putting on a few pounds (but don't we all with age) it's still competitive with many of the modern Mader's however a boat that's not got the larger kite & longer pole or does not have full raking rig so can't use multi clew Genoa's is significantly slower & harder to sail.
And then there's the carbon rig to consider though this does not make so much of a difference on flat water in light winds once the crew is starting to wire then the advantage starts to kick in which increases as the wind does.
If you go on date alone with 1985 as the cut off then Rodney's hi tech Hamble composites boat would qualify. With a bit of tlc & in the right hands that boat is capable of being in the top half of a Worlds fleet.
The way I see it the CVRDA is the perfect umbrella organisation for the older unconverted boats (of which there are now probably more in the UK than modern ones) to be able to get together & have some competitive racing on a fairly level playing field. It is these boats that I think truly rate as classic FD's
Apart from everything works a bit better There is very little difference between a mid 1980's boat and that built in the early 2000's assuming they all have the larger spinnaker The BM's were winning World & European Championships right up-to the mid 2000's in a 1988 Mader
Enough rambling from me hope this helps.
Tony
And then there's the carbon rig to consider though this does not make so much of a difference on flat water in light winds once the crew is starting to wire then the advantage starts to kick in which increases as the wind does.
If you go on date alone with 1985 as the cut off then Rodney's hi tech Hamble composites boat would qualify. With a bit of tlc & in the right hands that boat is capable of being in the top half of a Worlds fleet.
The way I see it the CVRDA is the perfect umbrella organisation for the older unconverted boats (of which there are now probably more in the UK than modern ones) to be able to get together & have some competitive racing on a fairly level playing field. It is these boats that I think truly rate as classic FD's
Apart from everything works a bit better There is very little difference between a mid 1980's boat and that built in the early 2000's assuming they all have the larger spinnaker The BM's were winning World & European Championships right up-to the mid 2000's in a 1988 Mader
Enough rambling from me hope this helps.
Tony
Re: FD Class in UK
The same applies to many cvrda qualifying boats. By altering handicaps to suit, as Roger says, we have managed to get pretty fair racing most of the time.
It does throw up some anomolies at times, but by doing the cut off at 1985, we have generally kept the "feel" of the classics. The fully tricked out carbon rigged boats may not feel that at home racing against wooden masted Merlins from 1946, of course, but if there are a few other big boats to be actually racing against, then that side of things really doesn't matter, providied they accept that they will have to work rather harder than the Merlin to sail to handicap!
It does throw up some anomolies at times, but by doing the cut off at 1985, we have generally kept the "feel" of the classics. The fully tricked out carbon rigged boats may not feel that at home racing against wooden masted Merlins from 1946, of course, but if there are a few other big boats to be actually racing against, then that side of things really doesn't matter, providied they accept that they will have to work rather harder than the Merlin to sail to handicap!
Rupert
Re: FD Class in UK
Tony,
Worry not, I don't think you are rambling at all - far from it! I think you paint an interesting picture that shows so much potential. The key thing is that your description of the Classic/non classic FD applies just as equally to the 505 (and probably the Hornet too!).
But you're right about the abilities of the older boats, I said Steve James's K350 (Rodney's last boat) and it felt great, it certainly seemed very stiff but then with an alloy/nomex honeycomb core, it ought to be! My guess is that a new suit of sails on the boat and you could easily compete with far newer boats................
FWIW, the idea of getting the FDs and 505s together as 'classics' is something that would have, I'm sure, a big 'pull' in terms of media coverage!
D
Worry not, I don't think you are rambling at all - far from it! I think you paint an interesting picture that shows so much potential. The key thing is that your description of the Classic/non classic FD applies just as equally to the 505 (and probably the Hornet too!).
But you're right about the abilities of the older boats, I said Steve James's K350 (Rodney's last boat) and it felt great, it certainly seemed very stiff but then with an alloy/nomex honeycomb core, it ought to be! My guess is that a new suit of sails on the boat and you could easily compete with far newer boats................
FWIW, the idea of getting the FDs and 505s together as 'classics' is something that would have, I'm sure, a big 'pull' in terms of media coverage!
D
David H
Re: FD Class in UK
Rupert,
I'm sorry but I feel that you're coming at this from the wrong direction! It is not the fully carbonised boats that 'fail to feel at home' racing against the more original boats, but far more a case of the original boats being forced down the route into thinking "why are we bothering with this". If you're not prepared to go into racing with a modern, high tech rig, then you have to accept that you're not really going to be competing. I was at the Classic MR session (with Roger and Chris) and I think the 'modernisers' wanted (and won the day on this) carbon foils being allowed without penalty. I know that you'd probably think that this sounds like "poacher turned gamekeeper" but from a personal perspective - from one who races that sort of boat - that PYs for the modernised boats should be tougher, rather than relaxed!
D
I'm sorry but I feel that you're coming at this from the wrong direction! It is not the fully carbonised boats that 'fail to feel at home' racing against the more original boats, but far more a case of the original boats being forced down the route into thinking "why are we bothering with this". If you're not prepared to go into racing with a modern, high tech rig, then you have to accept that you're not really going to be competing. I was at the Classic MR session (with Roger and Chris) and I think the 'modernisers' wanted (and won the day on this) carbon foils being allowed without penalty. I know that you'd probably think that this sounds like "poacher turned gamekeeper" but from a personal perspective - from one who races that sort of boat - that PYs for the modernised boats should be tougher, rather than relaxed!
D
David H
Re: FD Class in UK
David, you might have misunderstood me - I quite agree that the carbon etc penalty should be harder. The boat should have to be sailed far harder to win than an original boat should.
Rupert
Re: FD Class in UK
Ho ho Rupert, I don't think it matters which way you look at things, for I think we're both seeing the same thing! It is a shame that the MR class don't see what we can.....or don't want to see it!
The PY situation is one that we've touched on in the past, but as things develop further, I'm really thinking that Jim C's words from his experience in the Cherubs will come back to make us think.... he said that they had to "handicap and handicap hard" (excuse me Jim if I have paraphrased your comments.
D
The PY situation is one that we've touched on in the past, but as things develop further, I'm really thinking that Jim C's words from his experience in the Cherubs will come back to make us think.... he said that they had to "handicap and handicap hard" (excuse me Jim if I have paraphrased your comments.
D
David H
Re: FD Class in UK
Don't forget we break our racing down into wings or fleets for results - an FD could never win the Vintage wing, since they just weren't clinker built (were they?) and equally a vintage merlin couldn't win the old wing prize. We're together on the water and off it but we're really in separate races.
As for handicapping a carbonised boat - well we just apply the same punishments we use for the Merlins and Finns.
As for handicapping a carbonised boat - well we just apply the same punishments we use for the Merlins and Finns.
(Half Cut and What a Lark Removals Ltd)
Re: FD Class in UK
Flogging and keelhauling?Pat wrote: As for handicapping a carbonised boat - well we just apply the same punishments we use for the Merlins and Finns.
Rupert
Re: FD Class in UK
Rupert and Pat,
whilst I'd not go as far as some who think a gibbet positioned in the dinghy park would cure a lot of these issues, I do agree that the time is far approaching when boats that have been radically altered should attract radical PYs. This may sound like a punitive move against the carbonised boats and in a way it may well be. Maybe the solution is to let the boats retro-fitted with high tech rigs go and do their own thing up on the Thames and then restore the DeMay series to what it was intended to be - something akin to the Silver Tiller but for the old boats. But even that description is now getting bent out of shape - as 'old boats' in the MR sense of things is anything older than 25 years (they don't have the 1985 barrier) so you could have an early Canterbury Tales, even an early FRP Tales and still be a 'classic'. The owners of the older boats really must think that no one loves them, as they are now caught on two fronts - from the older boats that have been radically re-rigged, and much newer boats that are a quantum leap ahead.
I know that this can sound like a dinghy sailing version of NIMBY-ism, but if something is not done soon, what is the rationale behind restoring an old boat with a strong eye towards originality!
So, if not "off with their heads" then at least give them a swingeing slice off the PY!
D
whilst I'd not go as far as some who think a gibbet positioned in the dinghy park would cure a lot of these issues, I do agree that the time is far approaching when boats that have been radically altered should attract radical PYs. This may sound like a punitive move against the carbonised boats and in a way it may well be. Maybe the solution is to let the boats retro-fitted with high tech rigs go and do their own thing up on the Thames and then restore the DeMay series to what it was intended to be - something akin to the Silver Tiller but for the old boats. But even that description is now getting bent out of shape - as 'old boats' in the MR sense of things is anything older than 25 years (they don't have the 1985 barrier) so you could have an early Canterbury Tales, even an early FRP Tales and still be a 'classic'. The owners of the older boats really must think that no one loves them, as they are now caught on two fronts - from the older boats that have been radically re-rigged, and much newer boats that are a quantum leap ahead.
I know that this can sound like a dinghy sailing version of NIMBY-ism, but if something is not done soon, what is the rationale behind restoring an old boat with a strong eye towards originality!
So, if not "off with their heads" then at least give them a swingeing slice off the PY!
D
David H