Cut off date for CVRDA

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Peter Jenner
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Cut off date for CVRDA

Post by Peter Jenner » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:20 pm

I was wondering if an OK built in 1985 was eligible for CVRDA racing ?

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Peter Jenner

Rupert
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Re: Cut off date for CVRDA

Post by Rupert » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:31 am

Yup! 1985 is in.
Rupert

Peter Jenner
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Cut off date for CVRDA

Post by Peter Jenner » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:37 am

Thank you .

The home page says " built before 1985 "

So is that 1985 inclusive or do you have a rolling date that changes every year ?

Regards

Peter

roger
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Re: Cut off date for CVRDA

Post by roger » Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:26 pm

It was at one point a rolling year at 25 years old but with some classes many boats capable of winning championships were becoming eligible so we made a decision at an AGM to hold the date for a while and review it occasionally.
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Michael Brigg
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Re: Cut off date for CVRDA

Post by Michael Brigg » Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:02 pm

roger wrote:It was at one point a rolling year at 25 years old but with some classes many boats capable of winning championships were becoming eligible so we made a decision at an AGM to hold the date for a while and review it occasionally.
Hi Roger,,

I must say that I hadn't read the mission statement/home page in a little while and was not so aware of what it said about "who can come."

The wording surprised me...
We sail and race because we enjoy it and because it is often difficult to sail and compete against newer boats, and stand a chance of winning. As stated elsewhere on this site we sail using a flexible cvrda handicap system, weighted in favour of those with older masts, sails etc.
I agree that we race "because we enjoy it." A worthy sentiment that will always stand up to scrutiny.

...but let us look at this from the point of view of the firefly.

A well maintained boat of any age with new sails and foils, is capable of winning the championship.

There are some boats where build, rig or hull shape has radically changed to such an extent that one might say they are a different design, and in many such cases the handicapping of those boats will reflect this. Merlins and moths come to mind, as well as Int. 14 and similar development classes. A difficulty arises of course where there is a need to convert the modern handicap back to the 1965 Portsmouth number, and this is where "special handicaps estimated often with a good deal of teeth sucking becomes essential.

It is also where tha ambiguity of the mission statement above gets a little more difficult.

Personally I don't think I am ever in with a chance of winning on a level playing field. There are too many better sailors , doing more sailing practice than I am. So I sail these days almost exclusively for the taking part and company, and the individual 1 on 1 competition that takes place wherever I happen to be in the fleet.

The main trophy at the CVRDA rally I have always thought was the most ribbons. The boat that the most people wanted to take home with them.

We all sail boats that have for the most part been abandoned by club racing in favour of newer models.

Clubs must by neccessity attract a membership or they close, and so market forces must prevail. The racing (or rallying) of elderly, beloved racing dingies is a bit more niche market, and the real definition of CVRDA events is that the assotiation provides a forum for ongoing discussion about the practicalities of maintaining these boats, as well as an opportunity not so much to race them as to push them to their personal limits and take part in mutual faffage in the boat park.

I believe this is increasingly going to become a matter of exchanging information and publicity for stand alone evants (such as the Bosham Classic Revival) in addition to a number of "core events, ostensibly the "original CVRDA events" (such as Roadford or Shearwater) where the rather vague original rules might be applied. Along with this is a desire NOT to be dictated to by Bar room Barristers.

But none of these personal opinions gets away from the statement " ...race against newer boats and stand a chance of winning."

If the purpose of the race is, "to win," then it is only fair to expect the sailor that spends the most time and maintenance will have an (earned) advantage. There are of course classes where this can be acheived by cash injection, but these classes are relatively few, and can be avoided, and a fully carbonated Merlin, (or similar) at a CVRDA event is comparatively rare. Sailors the sail to that tune require a perculiar form of oxygen to light their fire that is not found in the CVRDA community.

Most CVRDA events as I understand it have rules of qualification based on a loose interpretation of CVRDA priciples , tweeked to suit the needs of the local club, and one has only to look at the range of "Non CVRDA" boats discussed on the forum to realise that a set of rules is a poor basis for deciding what is "in" or "out."

It is unlikely that anyone would be moderated for talking about rivett rot on the lower section of their L***r mast, though they might get a few "helpful" comments.

So personally I think a 1985 OK is OK.
Michael Brigg

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Ed
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Re: Cut off date for CVRDA

Post by Ed » Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:24 pm

Cor.....xmas-break flak has started already.... :P

eib
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Re: Cut off date for CVRDA

Post by Rupert » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:08 pm

No sure I understood what the jist of your post was Michael.

The cvrda for the last 6 years or so has set 1985 as the cut off point for boats designed before 1965. Both dates are inclusive, so an OK (designed in the 50s) and built in 1985 will be fine. A 1986 one won't, as the majority of sailors felt there needed to be a line drawn in the sand.

As for events, the aim of the cvrda has always been to support classic dinghy events, whether they fit the cvrda definitions or not. Judging by the last few years, there are still plenty of people and clubs who are happy to run using the cvrda criteria. If the sailing membership wish the "rules" to change, they are welcome to start a thread on it, but any decision will be made at the AGM by sailors.

The Firefly - yes, any Firefly can win at Firefly events, provided it has new gear and decent sailors. At the cvrda, the idea is to give the boat carrying a steel plate, wooden topmast and 1950s sails as much chance of winning as a boat will "all the gear". Whether we have succeeded at that I'm not sure (I think more allowance still needs to be made, as the old kit can be pushed less hard) but that is the aim, and it is what makes the cvrda different to mainstream racing, even in classes where age hasn't caused a boat to be obsolete.

Ed and his Jollyboat is still the best example, even after 16 years - the expectation at a club was that an 18' boat like that would be very fast, and was handicapped as such, never taking into account that it was old, soft and fragile and so could only perform at a small% of its potential. Now, I happen to think that in mainstream racing that approach makes some sense - after all, a new boat should be faster than an old one, and people shouldn't be put off buying new. So the cvrda came into being with what was (at the time) a radical new approach, to encourage people to keep old boats up and sailing, and to give them company to sail with.

Yes, plenty of non cvrda boats are discussed on here. There is a wide knowledge base, and a love of many types of boat, even Lasers, so why not talk about them?
Rupert

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Re: Cut off date for CVRDA

Post by roger » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:11 pm

Ed I think you are part author of the mssion statement so over to you. I was just answering a question about 1985 and all that.
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Michael Brigg
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Re: Cut off date for CVRDA

Post by Michael Brigg » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:15 pm

Ed wrote:Cor.....xmas-break flak has started already.... :P

eib
Not so much flack Ed, more to do with rain and wind. Haven't had a boat on the water for months (not even the Scull,) and the garage is too damp and cold to work on the Canoe. (Must find and kick start the radiator that SWIMBO doesnt know I didn't take to the tip! :twisted: )

I guess I've got cabin fever.

Better get that recipe for Epiphanes off to Santa's elves in time for Christmas Eve, or all that Stripping will be for nothing.
Michael Brigg

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Re: Cut off date for CVRDA

Post by Michael Brigg » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:18 pm

I googled Christmas Varnish...

Image

:cry: :evil:
Michael Brigg

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Re: Cut off date for CVRDA

Post by Michael Brigg » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:27 pm

Rupert wrote:No sure I understood what the jist of your post was Michael.
I just saw your comment Rupert, to say that the OK was OK, then Rogers citation of current CVRDA which seemed to say no, because it was not built before 1985.

The abcence of racing discussion and other stuff was getting to me so I felt like a bit of discussion.

The opinion is my own personal one and one that I would use if ever I reccomend the assotiation to a friend.

This time of the year of course (as above) should be given over to more frivolous discussion but I was feeling a bit Grinchy.

What is important is that in addition to My Canoe in the garage , ther is also Neils "B" Canoe, an "Un"Skol Moth, and at least one i14, and evan Nessa's Aggie to look forward to.

Race you to April anyone. Who else has a project in the Garage to declare?
Michael Brigg

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Re: Cut off date for CVRDA

Post by Rupert » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:13 pm

Ah, I see - built before December 31, 1985 would be the long version.

Or possibly Keel laid before 31st December 1985, though that might be more contentious.

Like what you did to your nails - no wonder you've not done anything to the canoe - you'd not want to damage those!

Nothing at all bar house paint in the garage (apart from all the sails, kit, crap needing throwing away etc) as no projects planned even, let alone going to happen. The Mirror got a coat of paint before going away for the winter, following the summer of Minisail revamp. Need to get someone else's Gull in for some repairs, but that isn't a project, I hope!
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Michael Brigg
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Re: Cut off date for CVRDA

Post by Michael Brigg » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:25 pm

Rupert wrote:Ah, I see - built before December 31, 1985 would be the long version.

Or possibly Keel laid before 31st December 1985, though that might be more contentious.

Like what you did to your nails - no wonder you've not done anything to the canoe - you'd not want to damage those!

Nothing at all bar house paint in the garage (apart from all the sails, kit, crap needing throwing away etc) as no projects planned even, let alone going to happen. The Mirror got a coat of paint before going away for the winter, following the summer of Minisail revamp. Need to get someone else's Gull in for some repairs, but that isn't a project, I hope!
That sounds about right Rupert,
Last time you mentioned your garage you/we were talking about recarpeting and curtains. 8)
Michael Brigg

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Re: Cut off date for CVRDA

Post by roger » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:34 pm

However you read my post Micheal it wasn't meant as a No more as an explanation of how things had developed to the current position.
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Re: Cut off date for CVRDA

Post by davidh » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:24 am

Michael et al,

I for one did not see your post as at all tricky, indeed, I thought it nicely timed at the end of another season. It is a good thing to step back now and then to just restate our 'articles of faith'. We're lucky, for the classic scene continues to grow and develop, but at the same time it has changed. It is no longer a case of "we few, we happy few, we band of brothers", for the engagement with the classic scene has spread well beyond the original bounds.

We're also seeing some blurring of those criteria, such as with the lowrider moths (and, at Blithfield, the inclusion of the 'Prime of Life' merlins, which suggests that the idea we have for bring events together (Hunts, Roadford and Blithfield being great examples) - where the CVRDA operate as the umbrella under which other activities take place is just a sign of the growing strength of the organisation.

I like your sign off though - here is to a classic season in 2016. if your 'brothers in arms' (or brothers with scalpels) can get their fingers out, I may even be able to sail myself in 2015! I look forward to seeing you all again then,

But until that happy moment, all the very best of seasons greetings to you and to all who are out there sailing their classics,

D
David H

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