Moth merry-go-round

General chat about boats
solentgal
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Moth merry-go-round

Post by solentgal » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:23 am

As some of you may know I (somewhat reluctantly) parted with the Europa that was an "in progress" project...Gone to Hotspur who I'm sure will have her afloat again soon :) ...but I can't leave Moths alone, and now have the bright green Scow that I believe may have been somewhere in the Cotswolds? ..... I know it has done at least one CVRDA event from the pics online too, so some of you will know this boat. Can anyone tell me any history of the boat at all?
My intention is to get her afloat quickly, as she really doesn't need much doing, and now that we know for sure we won't be moving house for another 5 years or so, we are at last intending joining a club, probably Mengeham Rythe on Hayling if they'll have us,.....hence the need to sort the GP14 trolley brake idea to cope with the sea wall, although realistically Lynne is likely to be with me when sailing her... and I hope to race the Scow this summer........been a long time since I have though, so going to be very rusty!
One thing that I haven't clarified yet is the current centreboard arrangement........tricky to do at present as she is on top of Fi-Fi in the garage!
She seems to have had a plate that pivoted on a bracket mounted on top of the slot (which looks to have been permanently removed), and I have what I think is the original plate and a slightly wider (fore and aft) plate that has a sort of cassette inner daggerboard box.......not sure which was in use, and will have to play around with it to work out how it all fits/pivots.
My original scow that I sailed in the early 80s had a pivoting plate but I can't remember the arrangement....and the old photos I have don't show the right area.....very frustrating!
Along with the boat I also acquired a spare sail, mast(s), second centreboard, and a pair of wings.......nearly enough to tempt me to have a go at designing/building an old rules boat.....would be a fairly cheap project, and enable me to cross another item off my bucket list! :)
Here are a few pics of the Scow anyway:

Image

Image

Image

Image
Sami.

roger
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Re: Moth merry-go-round

Post by roger » Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:21 pm

Sorry I know nothing about the history of this boat other than it was at Whitefriars cvrda event a few years ago. I loved it then and I am pleased to see her in good hands.
It is one of those boats that is good to look at and unusual enough to draw comments.

I hope you have fun with her and can I have a go please. :D
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simonf
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Re: Moth merry-go-round

Post by simonf » Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:49 pm

Cool car!!

Rupert
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Re: Moth merry-go-round

Post by Rupert » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:28 pm

Great car-boat combo.

One of my favorite cvrda boats, this. If my knees could have coped, she would have come back to Whitefriars.
Rupert

solentgal
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Re: Moth merry-go-round

Post by solentgal » Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:00 am

Thanks guys......she wasn't an easily secured load coming home (there were all the spares aboard too) but if I can get her to fit on her combi more securely for quick loading and safe transport then she may well make an appearance at one or two CVRDA events this year .....which brings me to the next questions.....insurance and handicap?

I know there are one or two sensible companies out there when it comes to insuring early Moths......can someone remind me as to which ones please?

With regard to handicap.......firstly is there a formula for converting old system to new?
I have mid 60s handicap tables to hand, and the Imperium Scow had been around since at least the early 60s in this country (got a pic on the front cover of a July 64 Light Craft which must have been taken winter 63/64) The style of rig on my boat would have been in use roughly 1968 onwards, so I reckon comparisons with other classes from that era that haven't changed drastically would give a rough indication when converted to modern handicap......I'm not good on this subject at all, and I know it always causes debate... :twisted:
There is the added complication of foiling Moths being effectively a "new" class anyway........having said that, older lowriders can be competitive in some conditions it seems.....particularly scows, going by the Aussie scene, so it is very difficult to judge what would be considered right for a boat of this vintage.
As far as I'm concerned I don't really mind whether I get a fair handicap or not........I can work out roughly how well (or not!) I'm doing for my own satisfaction.....the club sailing for me is more about getting out there and having some fun trying to beat at least some of the other boats over the line, whilst knowing I have safety cover as well. On the other hand I don't want anyone to give me a generous handicap and causing any disputes either, so it would be good to know what you folk think please?

If I do make it to any events, then I'm very happy to let anyone who is interested take her out for a sail. :)
Sami.

JimC
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Re: Moth merry-go-round

Post by JimC » Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:05 pm

solentgal wrote:firstly is there a formula for converting old system to new?
Yes. In 1977 all numbers were multiplied by 1.2,and in 1996 by 9.46. I've not managed to find late 60s data from a primary source, but the Int Moth PY was 1271 in 1964 and 1146 in 1973. In my opinion 1200 would be a reasonable trial number for a late 60s rig. That's slower than a British Moth is now, but faster than a British Moth was before they stopped sailing on water that doesn't suit them.

Rupert
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Re: Moth merry-go-round

Post by Rupert » Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:22 pm

In CVRDA terms, she would probably be off 101 or there abouts, using the "new" style rig, which is where Jim's 1146 comes from. I think Jim is right that 1200 would be a good place to start for a modern one. Best bet is to try and race it against the plethora of singlehanders which sail off anything between 1150 and 1190 and see how close behind/far ahead you are.

Spiderman might have some thoughts about how an Imperium was supposed to go against a Shelley.
Rupert

solentgal
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Re: Moth merry-go-round

Post by solentgal » Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:16 pm

Ok....thanks Jim and Rupert, that gives me a good starting point I think, and could be useful to open a discussion with the powers-that-be at the club when I get that far :)
Sami.

phil58490
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Re: Moth merry-go-round

Post by phil58490 » Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:45 pm

I had her insured through Noble Marine, having checked she is still insured in my name through them until 13th April 2015 which cost me £42.40 for the year. That was for third party risks only but does cover racing up to £5 million. I did not have cover for damage or theft as that would have cost more and I didn't think it worthwhile. I enquired and they will give me a small refund but not transfer the cover.
Just across the Tamar in South East Cornwall

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solentgal
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Re: Moth merry-go-round

Post by solentgal » Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:33 pm

Thanks Phil....... I'm thinking of the same sort of cover really, so I'll get in touch with them when I'm ready to take her to the club.

Think I have the centreboard sussed out now too.....tricky though....standing on a stool trying to peer inside when she's on top of the car in the garage! :)
Sami.

Spiderman
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Re: Moth merry-go-round

Post by Spiderman » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:15 pm

Hi Sami,

Good to hear that you have seen sense and rejoined the CVRDA Moth fraternity.
The boat looks great and shouldn't need too much doing before you can get her on the water if the photos are anything to go by.
In the pics that were taken at Whitefriars a few years ago the boat was displaying K3134 as the sail number. Assuming that this is the correct number for the boat then it would have been built sometime around 71/ 72. I have records showing that she was owned by J.R. Woods in Coventry in 1972 and was called "Quarrion".
I am guessing that she is an Imperium design and would therefore have been built by Geoff Osmand in Cornwall.
As for a suitable handicap under the modern system I think that 1170 would be worth a try initially as that would put you between a British Moth and a Laser 4.7. Jim may well be right with 1200, but by starting lower and working back up you are less likely to be accused of banditry!
Back in the day it was very much a horses for courses situation and the scows were extremely fast in the right conditions, however, struggled against the skiffs in the lighter stuff. The reason that scows never really caught on here is the wide variety of sailing waters and wind conditions that Moths were sailed in during the 70s. Although the scows were fantastic in high winds and flat water or long shallow waves they had real problems competing against the best skiffs in light winds or steep chop. Even the later winged scows like the Bunyip that defending champion Greg Hilton brought to Eastbourne for the Worlds in 1983 struggled against the Magnums of the time. His only really good results came on the really windy day, but the top 5 places overall were filled by Magnum V designs!
Having said that I remember watching Ian Ward from Australia sailing a borrowed Dutch built scow in a force 7 at the Sweden worlds in 87 when the racing was cancelled and I have honestly never seen a non foiling Moth go so fast. The owner of the boat, Gerben Wassenaar, insisted that "Wardy" should take it out as he wanted to see the scow he had built being sailed as it should by somebody who knew what they were doing and he wasn't disappointed!
Anyway, keep us posted as to your progress and I expect to see pictures of your first outing.

Regards

Ian M

P.S. If you aren't planning to use the wings and tramps then I know where they could be put to good use....
P.P.S Wicked motor! especially cool with the scow on the roof.

consur
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Re: Moth merry-go-round

Post by consur » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:04 pm

The attached diagram may help to clarify the arrangement of the daggerboard tilting casette controls. The Japanese characters are because it was posted by Ohno San on the Scow Moth Facebook group.
Capture.JPG

solentgal
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Re: Moth merry-go-round

Post by solentgal » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:30 pm

Thanks guys, lots of useful info there. I'm away in Scotland at present trying to type on a phone, so will reply properly next week when homes again :)
Sami.

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Nessa
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Re: Moth merry-go-round

Post by Nessa » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:47 pm

I keep finding bits of moth: a Claridge boom, a mast, a Claridge stock and tiller... I will bring them all to Hunts for someone to take away. I also, today, found the cover for the minty green, as once was, which I promised to Dave as a template for a new one.

Hoping the candle of Hunts will draw the moths to it, but please, not too much crashing and burning!
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Michael Brigg
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Re: Moth merry-go-round

Post by Michael Brigg » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:48 am

I'll send a copy of the diagram to my daughter to translate. She is in her final year at uni doing Japanese studies :x
Michael Brigg

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