Phantom PY no

david r · Post by **david r** » Mon May 08, 2006 10:56 pm

Does anybody know what the Phantom h/cap used to be in old no's compared to a Laser (92 wasn't it ?)

Struggling to convince our s. comm to adjust Ph h/cap = 1045 compared to laser at 1078

Virtually impossible to beat - as they have 2 extra m2 of sail, Mylar sails at that & fancy construction light wt etc....

Thanks in anticipation of our resident experts (anoraks ?) looking it up in their vast library

David Rollinson

PS Blast from the Past - Pegasus 194 still in the workshop, won't be able to make B/sea I'm afraid, hope to get to Clywedog though !!!

Post by **neil** » Mon May 08, 2006 11:08 pm

The 1978 Source Book of Dinghies has the Laser as 114 and the Phantom as 111.

Post by **Rupert** » Tue May 09, 2006 9:04 am

Back in the days of the Firefly being 100 (1974, so the first PY the Phantom would have had) the Phantom was 93 and the Laser 95. The Phantom has changed out of all recognition (for a one design) since then, whereas the Laser just has fancier control lines and more boring colour sails!
If anyone has a spare copy of the 1978 source book of dinghies, let me know, please!

davidh · Post by **davidh** » Tue May 09, 2006 9:58 am

A subject very close to my heart as I'm currently sailing the Blaze against some very good Phantoms at Netley. This year they've dropped from 1047 to 1045 but that is still very generous if you've a boat with a modern carbon rig. At another club where they have individual boat handicaps I've seen Phantoms rate as low as 1030 and still be hard to beat. It's not just the Phantom though - we've some very good Scorpions and with them on 1050 you're another very competitive boat for handicap sailing. Now there is the RS200, sailing of 1059, try beating one of those when it's being well sailed!

It is though all part of the 'slings and arrows of outrageous fortune' that is handicap racing, in the end it is hard to question relative ratings until one is comparing 'apples with apples'.

Whilst the Laser hasn't had the boost of modern go fast goodies they do have a wealth of support in what really makes a boat go fast - better sailing. After being at some major events this past winter and spring I've seen well sailed Lasers romp around the course and comfortably win against good opposition so it can be done.

But a digression: Handicaps.

Some (many!!) years ago while racing 505s I had a season when the 'big events' were there for the taking. The Burnham Icicle had been won, Tilly's Tiller at Queen mary, Pompey Perisher BUT the handicap boat of the year was an updated National 18. Kitted out with all the modern gear they were as fast as a top notch 505 in medium conditions, they only had to sail conservatively around the course to be in one of the 'glory' positions.

Likewise...I know of a racer who turned up with a very well equipped pegasus for some Handicap events and who then waltzed off with the silverware. Fair sailing or 'Pot Hunting'......tricky one that.

BUT...before leaving the subject, Nick...are you there? If not Nick does anyone have a Dinghy year Book from 1966 or 67. If so - is the Unit in there........ what Handicap would that have been given.

What is it with the CVRDA that makes one go from a sensible club racer to a 'fleet owner'. To the protracted negotiations over a Typhoon i'm now also very close to buying Unit 7.........

D

Post by **Rupert** » Tue May 09, 2006 12:17 pm

What is it with the CVRDA that makes one go from a sensible club racer to a 'fleet owner'.

Madness, pure madness...
Glad you've found a Unit, though!
BTW, did you manage any good photos of the Moth at Bristol, please? I've not got any of her sailing since the rebuild!

davidh · Post by **davidh** » Tue May 09, 2006 12:30 pm

Rupert,

am trying to get the scanner back on line - I'll try!!

I notice that you kept very low profile on the subject of single handers with hugely generous handicaps...........

D

davidh · Post by **davidh** » Tue May 09, 2006 1:18 pm

Rupert,

Sorry - you seemed to want to stay out mid river at BW so the only shot I have is of you getting wind and pointing directly for the mark while everyone else is heading in a different direction......

Let me know where to send the files, I've a half dozen or so nice ones taken on the day that can be uploaded.

D

Post by **Rupert** » Tue May 09, 2006 1:22 pm

The British Moth used to sail off 110, and I was off 107, so I took quite a bit of a cut! The same boat in a breeze would struggle off 110 even in the docks...PYs are never going to work well for a boat designed for one end of the wind range - either you win by miles and everyone moans, or you loose by lots and nobody notices!
If I'd taken the Firefly I'd have found the racing much easier - whether I'd have been quicker on handicap I don't know, but I'd have had fewer headaches working out where the H*ll the wind was coming from!
As for the modern handicap...I'd say it is virtually impossible to win on even a 100 acre pond, as the handicap used to be 10 points from the Firefly in 100, and is now 11 points in approx 1100 - by my reckoning, it has given away 9/10th of its handicap advantage! I blame those river sailors!
But then if I wanted to win handicap races all the time I'd concentate on the Firefly and actually get good at sailing her on more open water. I just like sailing lots of different boats, and seeing if I can get vaguely competitive before trying something else! Though the Moth will stay a while, as I'll probebly sling her from the garage roof if I concentrate on something else and get her out again when I'm old and sit out even less...

Pat · Post by **Pat** » Tue May 09, 2006 1:50 pm

Rupert I've got Moth photos from Baltic Wharf. I'll email when I can get on domestic internet.

Post by **Rupert** » Tue May 09, 2006 2:17 pm

Thank you Pat and David - rupert@cvrda.org will find me. I'm sure Ed would like any that you want posted on the website.
Staying out mid river paid more than it didn't, I'm afraid, from a sailing point of view, though if I'd realized you were taking shots I'd have come closer for a pose!
Boat placement certainly made more difference than boat type or PY at Bristol...and I would say that getting it right 50% the time was the best anyone could expect, as it was pretty easy to get it wrong 90%!

alan williams · Post by **alan williams** » Tue May 09, 2006 5:29 pm

Hi Guys If I wished to be a pot hunter I would obtain one of the following boats. YW dayboat, Mirror 16, N18, Lazy E, 12 Metre Sharpie (ever tried to beat a Dayboat in a blow),. Mirror 16 bags of sail good light wind and general allround performance, brill weight carrier advantagous handicap, like wise pevious boats. Tempo scow handicap unreal good in a blow(one for sail on ebay at present) Sprog (when windy)Cherub (when windy)also 420, 470 for same reason,narrow design N12, Merlin, INT14, Slipstream, British Moth or early Int Moth if you can find one for inland waters. Osprey,Hornet,FD, 505 for Sea conditions. And something like a Scorpion,
Zenith or Wayshed for all round sailing.
Well thats my pick, what would you suggest?
Cheers Al

davidh · Post by **davidh** » Tue May 09, 2006 5:59 pm

Alan,

I think I'd be somewhere close to you on this.

Mirror 16

The Marauder - properly set up they can be a bandits delight on handicap

national 18 - as I've seen it done, been beaten by one doing just that (pot hunting)

Scorpion....nah, slowly their Handicap is falling, old Merlins and N12 are also falling (over).

505 - yes but no. You have to have the right crew for one of those and to get them to sail to the handicap have your foot on the gas all the way around.

So - as one who has, in the past, huunted down the odd pot of two I'd still see a Pegasus, fitted out as per a 'today' dinghy, as the all time, across the spread of conditions, hard to beat handicap star.

There's always the Finn of course..........

D

Post by **Rupert** » Tue May 09, 2006 6:45 pm

But what boat to win on handicap inland and on the sea? All the above examples either work well in confined conditions or on the sea, or in light or strong winds, and the handicap is good at one extreme because they are so good at the other. Or the handicap is wrong, the boat having been sailed by not too hot people many years ago and nothing has changed since, the class being dead. Peggie off 1078 (?) would certainly be a bandit...of 92 or 91 it has to be very well sailed.
My vote for best all round (with proven handicap) (a "bandit" in the light wind inland stuff, but able to hold its own on open water) would be the Firefly. Saskia, Kathryn and I have managed to do well in drifters on rivers to very windy Roadford meetings, and I don't think we are alone in this.
Generally, though, I would say that the boat which is doing well and is rare (in the cvrda over the years it has been the Peggie) will get called a "handicap bandit" by those it beats, ignoring the fact that the sailors are good and that other ones aren't winning...

jpa_wfsc · Post by **jpa_wfsc** » Tue May 09, 2006 7:35 pm

Not to forget the most important thing - that different boats give different thrills (or emotions, I suppose). So for me, my ideal fleet would be International Canoe (the most exciting thing anywhere, that I have ever sailed), an old Merlin to sail with my wife on calm summer evenings, a miror ('cos my dad and I built one and then learned to sail in her), an OK {if I could still bend enough in the middle!} (because I won my first race in one), and a Salcombe Yawl (in Salcombe!) for a never to be forgotten days sailing all 5 of us one summers holiday. I don't want to go pot hunting, but I would like to do some class racing sometimes, in very evenly matched boats (so tactics etc would play a bigger part than speed) and for that, maybe some small keelboat - like a flying fifteen, etc.)

Don't care very much about the handicap.. but at the right time and place I have and would again enjoy sailing any of the above!

john./

Garry R · Post by **Garry R** » Wed May 10, 2006 8:28 am

And the last reply my friends explains exactly why the average CVRDA owner has a fleet!!