Are we ready for reproductions yet?

General chat about boats
realnutter
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Re: Are we ready for reproductions yet?

Post by realnutter » Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:05 pm

Rupert wrote:I'd assumed it was older than that.
It's a '78 update of a '46 design.. If I built it to '46 specifications, I'd have to build a wooden mast too!! At least I can stick a tin one on a '78 boat!
Matt

Int Moth K2992

solentgal
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Re: Are we ready for reproductions yet?

Post by solentgal » Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:06 pm

I've been thinking for ages that classic designs (as opposed to classic boats) should be catered for......the guys on the other side of the Big Pond are doing well with keeping classic Moth designs going.......would be great to see that sort of thing here. It is not just the racing, but the fun and challenge of building something and sailing it, with the camaraderie that goes with the whole process, .....now enhanced with internet communication of course. Classic Moths lend themselves very well to this concept, as they are small and relatively inexpensive, have freedom of design, and can be as challenging to design/build as each individual's ability allows.

Surely this is the spirit we want to see with other classes?
Sami.

chris
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Re: Are we ready for reproductions yet?

Post by chris » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:50 am

I haven't added to this thread yet, partly because I can't make up my mind! The 'Merlin' issue completely put me off wanting to join in with any vintage event organised by the Merlin Association - I even suspended my subscription in protest. I have no problem someone building a brand new merlin that is a narrow design but to be allowed to take a certificate that says it was built in the 1960's and to someone else's design is not on in my view. It is not a Vintage boat. As a consequence I have avoided any Vintage Merlin event since then and I know I'm not the only one.

What started this thread is not quite the same situation though as there is no suggestion that if someone built a replica they are trying to pass it off as a boat built 40, 50, 60 years ago. Technically a new replica would not fit our "...built before..." rule. I think Ed and Dougal have summed it up for me. I wouldn't turn such a boat away but I don't think they would be elibible for getting a race position. But it is a grey area as it would be quite possible to have a genuinely old boat boat that has been so updated that there is nothing authentic about it now but a brand new replica may, in fact be completly authentic without being old. The 'Classic' versus 'Classical' issue.

What I would not like to see are people being put off attending events who sails and look after originals which is just what has happened in the Merlins.

Rod
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Re: Are we ready for reproductions yet?

Post by Rod » Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:27 am

I see our Classic Moth class in the USA has been mentioned in this thread. Quite frankly, if we had just allowed restorations (our Vintage wing in your terminology) we would have been long gone. As David H. has mentioned, Mothboats from the 50's (our cutoff for vintage) are a pain in the ass to maintain; split planks, cracked wooden masts, abysmal self-rescuing characteristics. Most of the racing in our Classic Moths takes place in the Gen 1, Gen II wings which allow both new reproductions, and old restored and Olympic Europe dinghies. We have builders that like to restore as well as build new. We have builders that like to make FrankenMoths out of current SMOD's. The vintage restorations may show up at a regatta for show, concours d'elegance if you will, or they may race in the Vintage division which mucks it up the back of the fleet (we all start together). We are very cognizant of the relevance or our vintage heritage and very appreciative of those who fix them up, we just realize they may not make good racing dinghies in 2016.

I think the key is that the Classic Moth class in the USA has the ethos of 1960's DIY dinghy scene. We also try to confine the true pot-hunters to our Gen II - narrow waterline division. If you want to build a rule-beater for our slower Gen I division we have a classification committee that would just as well bump you into Gen II; if for no other reason that you violated the intent of Gen I.

I have no idea what the problem was in the Merlin Rocket Vintage Division but it sound like a complete wanker decided that a championship was more important than understanding the underlying culture that was being promoted. It seems that those in charge should also have received a complete dressing down for caving into the pot-hunters.

I am reminded of Dennis Conner, who restored a classic Concordia Yawl (good thing) and then got a sweetheart PHRF rating, raced with his 12 meter pros, and completely smoked the San Diego PHRF fleet (a very bad thing - completely uncalled for from a professional).

RLM
Rod M
Annapolis MD USA

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Rupert
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Re: Are we ready for reproductions yet?

Post by Rupert » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:10 am

Anyone pot hunting in the cvrda is in for disappointment. Firstly, the trophies are more quirky than impressive and secondly, having won a few things in the early days, no one cares. On the water, a few others will be interested, because they want to win too, but as soon as you are back on shore, it's all about the boats, the varnish, the unusual beast, or screwing things back together before the next race.

Dennis Connor would soon get bored, as I suspect happened in the racing he was doing.

From over here, the Classic Moths seem to have got it about right.
Rupert

davidh
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Re: Are we ready for reproductions yet?

Post by davidh » Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:14 am

Rod and Rupert

With regard to the MR situation - as I understand things, this matter still rumbles on in various Committees and the like. It is such a shame, because the boat in question is simply superb; one of the best looking Merlin Rockets on a river that is already full of beautiful looking Merlins. The combination of what is effectively a new boat to the design of what has become acknowledged as the 'best' inland design, a state of the art carbon rig and a very good helm make the boat all but unbeatable on restricted inland waters.

So far, there is nothing at all wrong with the project, indeed, it is to be applauded. Had winning Bourne End Week been 'it', which as I understood it was the original motivation, then I think we'd all have been full of admiration.

Sadly, it is the 'what happened next' that is still fuelling dissent. The boat was awarded the 'old boat' (30 years and more) prize.

Had this been politely refused on the grounds that it didn't really apply, then everything would still be sweetness and light. Instead, the boat didn't just take the prize, but has gone on to win classic events (including against other cvrda boats) at other locations.

It is part of the established cant of the Merlin Rocket class that any reference to a boat in the records will contain the sail number and design - and designer. So, the boat in question has all it's details listed. What is at the heart of the issue is that this information is simply wrong, it is no longer the work of 'Deadman&Brookes'; I sat little more than 6ft from the builder in question as he proudly described how he'd take the lines of the famous Holt 'Passing Cloud' and modified them further. In short, the records record the boat as a poodle, when it is now a greyhound!

Since then the class, the RYA and various individuals have danced around their handbags on this, they've floated like butterflies and stung like them!
In hindsight, from the outset, there was simply too much of a view that "no one would bother to go to this extreme as the prizes weren't worthy of all the effort". Hate to tell you both the harsh facts of modern life in the dinghy world, but not only did it happen, it has happened again with a brazen dis-regard for the wider good health of the class.

Maybe the CVRDA events are not as yet considered worthy of the effort, but that will change. The bigger classic events such as Bosham have already seen the wolf in sheeps clothing and are having to work hard to contain it. yes, it is a sad reflection, not on the boats, but on the people who sail them. But.... you have to be so very, very careful, for there is a world of difference between someone who does a superb restoration of a boat, giving it a virtual rebirth...and the just one stage more, when that restoration changes the nature of the boat.

Hate to say this guys...I'm seeing this happen elsewhere for other events....

D
David H

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PeterV
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Re: Are we ready for reproductions yet?

Post by PeterV » Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:31 pm

I've just been talking to Sir Ben about a new rig for my Swift when it's restored. I trust it will still be eligible for the classic events at CVRDA.
PeterV
Finn K197 & GBR564
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Rupert
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Re: Are we ready for reproductions yet?

Post by Rupert » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:15 pm

Not sure his Finn rig will fit a Swift!
Rupert

realnutter
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Re: Are we ready for reproductions yet?

Post by realnutter » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:20 pm

The top quarter of his AC rig might!
Matt

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Rupert
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Re: Are we ready for reproductions yet?

Post by Rupert » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:57 pm

As much as that?
Rupert

sam mason
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Re: Are we ready for reproductions yet?

Post by sam mason » Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:11 am

So at what point does an old boat cease to be an old boat? In my workshop at the moment is an Albacore built in 1977. So it so an old boat. Right?. Unfortunately the builder didn't know what non ferrous fixings were and the boat had the worst case of "nail sickness" I have ever seen. Remedial work involved cutting away large areas of the floor and putting new timber in. I suppose that, in total, about 1/3 of the floor was done. To give myself working space the tank tops had to come off so while I had the chance I filleted the tank sides. The transom was rotten due to poor fixings so I replaced that as well. It came here for a redeck in the first place so it will have new decks when it leaves here. Since it was new it has had at least 3 masts, a new centre board and rudder and countless suits of sails . Many of the fittings have been updated as well.It will still measure to the rules in force at the time it was built but is it still an "old boat"
In principle I believe that it is. There has been no fundamental change to the design or concept of the boat but the fact remains that quite a bit of it is new and considerably better than it was in 1977. I think of this as evolution , We all changed to terylene sails stainless rigging and alloy masts as they came available and this was considered evolutionary at the time. I believe that the use of better ply and epoxy is pretty much the same thing even at the cost of originality.
So there
Sam

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neil
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Re: Are we ready for reproductions yet?

Post by neil » Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:52 am

This is why we have the CVRDA handicapping system - http://www.cvrda.org/wp-cvrda/cvrda-handicaps/

A dark art, but effective, the key point being: [it is] dependent on the age, condition and amount of modernisation that the boat has had.
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sam mason
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Re: Are we ready for reproductions yet?

Post by sam mason » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:19 pm

Back to the beginning. Where does repair stop and modernisation start?

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trebor
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Re: Are we ready for reproductions yet?

Post by trebor » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:49 pm

I have thoroughly modernised (whilst doing essential repairs) my 40 year old Minisprint, but it is well documented, ( battened sail, 2 stage 32to1 kicker, powerful outhaul and downhaul, reinforced deck and hull, etc ), the Sprint I believe is a boat that can stand modernising.
I don't think we need to be overly pessimistic over this, after all forewarned is forearmed.
Robert
Minisprint 4230
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Rupert
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Re: Are we ready for reproductions yet?

Post by Rupert » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:48 pm

Sam, the Albacore you describe is still the same boat. If you had taken the thwart from her and built a new hull round it, she wouldn't be. Repairs, revitalisation, restoration all OK. Reimagining? Not quite the same.
Rupert

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