Insurance

General chat about boats
edjpa
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Post by edjpa » Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:08 pm

Recently a friend with a Laser 2000 (yes I know, not evan an old boat) found he could no longer get comprehensive new for old insurance. This because no-one can supply masts for Laser 2000 anymore!

john./
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Alan Price
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Post by Alan Price » Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:15 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by edjpa</i>
<br />Recently a friend with a Laser 2000 (yes I know, not evan an old boat) found he could no longer get comprehensive new for old insurance. This because no-one can supply masts for Laser 2000 anymore!

john./
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Alan Price
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Post by Alan Price » Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:33 pm

Oops! Pressed all the wrong bits!
Just wanted to say that I think this situation can only become more common. The large manufacturers have brought and still bring out new class after new class but soon loose interest when sales of a particular class fade.Remember the LaserEPS? I'm sure there will be more in the very near future. The Dart15 has been saved from a similar fate by the hard work of a few in the class association but the boat will be getting a new name and be made in South Africa. Check out http://www.dart15.com

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Post by Mark » Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:49 pm

It looks like the 'lost classes' are going to get a lot more boats in years to come
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Rupert
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Post by Rupert » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:18 pm

An interesting point - have we ever defined a "lost class?" Do we expect it to be over 25, but not designed before 1965, or are we open to any unusual craft? We might have to be careful not to end up racing against Bosses, Jets and the like in the future! Though I don't suppose any of the owners of such boats would look to us for support - I hope a similar organization will spring up to help the sailors of such boats - or am I as usual out of date?
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Post by Mark » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:46 pm

In thirty years time these boats are going to be in the same situation as the Jollyboats and Pegasus, interesting project
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neil
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Post by neil » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:02 pm

In some ways fastsail (http://www.fastsail.org) is starting to address these issues for a few classes. I suppose its a case of a move to a more disposable type of boat as a couple of big manufactuers produce boats with a limited life cycle/appeal and then no longer support them.
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Post by Alan Price » Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:15 pm

It's a bit sobering when a company like Laser turns its back on a success story like the Dart 15. A class selling itself with virtually no hype,hundreds of 'em about,usually 60 or more at the Nationals,established open circuit and class assoc. How do you make a good judgement before shelling out a few grand on the latest wizzo machine?

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Post by Mark » Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:36 pm

This is the downside of the 'manufacturers one designs'. The big two manufacturers seem to have one big selling design each and most of their other boats seem to be destined to have a very limited saleable life, if these people had been responsible for boat production in the 50s and 60s we would have very few classes of boat to sail, thank God for the independent builders and the class associations that persevered with boats that would never sell in high enough numbers to make them commercially viable
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neil
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Post by neil » Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:29 pm

One of my pet hates on other dinghy forums (fora?) is the standard reply to the question "Hi I'm a newbie what boat should I buy?". The reply is always to get the latest product beacuse that's what <i>everyone</i> else is sailing. I find this ironic because these manufacturers seem to start their sail numbers at 6**, 7** etc, and in reality there are not that many boats around (compared to Albacore / Wayfarer / FF etc).



rant over so I'm back off to clench some lovely steamed oak into a mahogany Tideway whilst thinking about disposable plastic boats.
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Post by Pat » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:07 pm

This is where the Class Association takes a prominent role. If the class has an active association it can pull through when boats are not being built, builders change and so on.
A prime example is the Lark, an "is/isn't CVRDA" class. It is now on its third builder (Rondar) and had a break of some years between Parker ceasing to build and Rondar taking over and bringing out the new design. Yet the nationals continued and the class association continued to hold events and training and encourage people into Larks so now the class is growing again.
If the Dart and Laser are similarly active classes then they can continue. It's up to the boat owners to join their class association and keep things going.
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Ed
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Post by Ed » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:18 pm

I don't think the situation that we have at present is in fact so very different to what we had in the 60s.....when there was also an enormouse turnout of designs, few of which were destined to become established. Look at Fairey Marine who with the support and suggestion of the RYA ask Uffa Fox to produce a 15ft boat to be a national class. This they do....the Swordfish....but after a few years, despite (or maybe because of the RYA connection) Fairey Marine modify the Swordfish design (I would still love to know what Uffa thought about this) and produce the Albacore....which in due time is proposed for national status....and then International status. Point is that Fairey just dropped the Swordfish in much the same way as builders do nowdays. There are other examples of the same thing.

As Pat says it is really up to the class associations to stand up for themselves....have faith in the future of their class and keep the thing going. In the past the associations were at least independent from the makers...and did own the rights to manufacture (or licence the manufacture) of the designs. these days I am less sure about this. who owns the right to produce Dart 15s....or ISOs.....or RS600s.....I am guessing.....but I bet the makers have retained it....and as such if they wish to pull the plug on the class....they can. So some quick action will be required by the owners to create an independent class association and then negotiate with designers and manufacturers to find new builders etc.

Somehow I suspect that this is where it might well all go wrong.....People sailing are now looking for a much faster payback from the class of boat they want to sail. People are no longer N12 sailors or Merlin guys....but they hop from class to class buying new boats and selling on. I just don't see many people as fanatically supporting their class anymore....and those that do are in the traditional classic classes anyway.

Will these boats become the lost classes of the next 20 years.....I would like to think so....but I guess not.....why not? Because I am sorry to say it but the build quality of most of these new boats is just so bad, that they simply will not last that long. They just were not designed to last. This is a pity as they could of been made to last a long time....but cheapness was put over longevity every time. This of course does depend on the class and the builder. Some Tasars for example...and many other epoxy-foam boats are stiff enough and well built enough to be competative after 10-15 years.....but an Iso?....forget it. I remember a while ago seeing an ISO where all deck fitings were just pulling out of deck....why? the wood underneath had been put in wrong place and screws were going into nothing. But it was not this that suprised me....but the fact that the wood was just a bit of household deal or spruce. It had knots, it was new, it appeared to have no coating of any kind. It was simply going to rot and all the fitings would then fall out...if they were in the correct place in the first place.

I do sometimes wonder what would of happened if RS or Topper had approached supporting classes differently. If they had published a new 'set of rules' and created a Mk1 design to fulfil them. they could of then offered good racing, but encouraged others to create designs to compete against them. I think some of the designs we have seen recently are pretty good.....but would love to see some other variations on the theme. Of course they would not see such a good profit....or for that matter be able to control the situation as well....which is really where we came in.

It is of course no suprise that now there has been a flurry of new designs.....some doing well others not so....that may people have moved back to the development classes, which offer in my mind so much more to the sailor.

Sorry if much of that did not make sense....normally go back and check ....but have to fly now.

cheers

eib
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Brian E. Evans
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Post by Brian E. Evans » Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:28 pm

Has CVRDA thought about obtaining a group insurance policy for their members?
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Ed
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Post by Ed » Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:39 am

thought about it lots.....

even approached brokers on many occasions, in fact every time I get a quote I have asked if they might be interested.

never had any interest at all...

but I still think it is a great idea....and one that I want to work more towards. If you know any broker who would give it some consideration, please do ask them and if you need any more information....please do just contact me.

cheers

eib
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