F5 gusting 6

Trevor C · Post by **Trevor C** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:40 pm

Today was my first time out in the Alb in such strong winds. Despite a reef, a reasonable crew and my son we were blown over, not quite a capsize but took on water up to the c/b case. The waves then lapped over the boat and despite a sturdy bucket we could not bail out faster than water came in.

My experience is limited in these conditions and I guess it gets to a stage where no matter how good a sailor you are there is too much sail and too much wind. Of course, with hindsight I should not have gone out but hardly any damage done and my son loved it, especially touching 7.4knts.

Any thoughts?

Jon Rawson · Post by **Jon Rawson** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:43 am

Yes,if yours is a wooden boat then bolt the chainplates on through the hull. It seems to be a weak point on older Albacores. One of my chainplates came away at Clywedog this year. It was held on to the wooden block that is afixed to the hull OK but the wooden block then parted fron the hull. It turned out to have been fixed on to the hull with a dab of glue and three brass screws, 43 years ago. Luckily the wooden block did not make it all the way through the deck so the mast was OK., mostly cosmetic damage. This happened to another member of our club a couple of years ago. His Albacore, which was 2 years newer than mine, was not so lucky and neded a new mast.
I am today going in search of a dozen stainless steel bolts.

Post by **Rupert** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:01 am

The answer, as with the Firefly, is 2 big buckets! It is possible then to bail faster than the water comes in, provided you work harder than at anything you have ever done in your life before, and don't stop, or you end up back at square one!I have had to resort to bailing from outside the boat over the transom in the past when my stern bags floated off...
I wonder why double bottomed plastic boats are proving so popular!

Trevor C · Post by **Trevor C** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:23 am

Yes, I can see that 2 buckets would have done it. Would you take the sails down, try and sail or go head to wind?

Post by **Rupert** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:06 pm

I tend to try and sit so the boom is blowing out at about 45 degrees to the boat, so I don't get bashed on the head too much. If racing, once the water is below case level, we carry on sailing best we can with Kathryn still trying to bail while I try and keep the bow from diving under the waves...the bailers will be open by then, and possibly even working. If our race is well and truly over, or we are in danger of being blown in again, we might take the main down, but it gets in the way rather when bailing.

Trevor C · Post by **Trevor C** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:42 pm

Thanks very much Rupert, I look foward to the next windy day. I am sure that we were knocked down by the remnants of the Brighton tornado! Perhaps I should put the steel centreplate back in for the winter!

jpa_wfsc · Post by **jpa_wfsc** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:43 pm

Certainly some old boats do need two buckets. The Pegasus is also somewhat under-bouyant when swammped - the transom flaps not big enough to shoot the water out the back, and with the rear deck almost awash every wave brought in more than the one bucket could shift out!

Most new boats are a thought to be a lot better, but even double bottomed boats like the commet trio, once full, can be very hard to empty! Saturday we had a filled up Trio (both helm and crew went onto the centreboard) so when it cam up the water was above the C/B case. 2/3 the water was got rid of by capsizing again (next to the bank) and when she came up there was only 4" or so of water left.

Garry R · Post by **Garry R** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:11 pm

My Merlin is a bugger to clear the water out of and I think Sandy and Pat have the same problem. I have on occasion resorted to stuffing a bit of tightly fitting foam strip, which I keep in the bailing bucket, down the centreboard case and this helps stem the tide a bit. They say a really tight slot gasket is important too.

Nigel · Post by **Nigel** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:18 pm

The Harrier also ships huge amounts of water from a capsize. I was thinking of putting some buoyancy bags in - not for the buoyancy but to displace that amount of water and save me some bailing.

chris · Post by **chris** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:29 pm

Another albi in our club has put some small bags high up under the deck so that when the boat is on its side the gunnels float higher. This helps in several ways. firstly it doesnt scoop so much water in when righting. It's easier to right because the bags act as a fulcrum which is further from the helm standing on the centreboard ( so less force is needed).

On the other hand the plus side of a full boat is that it won't sail away from you if you are still in the water!

jpa_wfsc · Post by **jpa_wfsc** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:37 pm

You cant win in this game of course, becasue the higher out of the water when on its side, the quicker you go fully inverted. Just watch a 29er capsize! They dont even pause 1/2 way over.... (then sail past it still upright in your Albacore or Firefly which you have kept under control anyhow, and grin!!)

I noticed that the Laser Stratos has hollow side tanks with holes that allow water in - so on its side it settles deep. Then when upright this water is routed overboard (to the transom) so that the side tanks add bouyancy when swampped but upright - very clever. Was this ever done in cvrda sorts of boat?

Post by **Rupert** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:39 pm

Most cvrda boats have leaky side tanks...

davidh · Post by **davidh** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:30 pm

Trevor,

Not one but two strings running here (for the price of one - shows what good value this place is), taking them one by one.

Firstly - what sort of applecore do you have - is it an old fairey Mk 1 with the stern tank? Simple question - for if it is a real oldie then you wont have transom flaps. With older boats it is easy to forget that there was a time when they weren't standard items of equipment, if you've not got them - get them, pronto! THen have a think about the buoyancy you've got - is it bags or tanks. Bags can not only be underinflated but if the strpas are loose this can allow the bag to lift - only an inch or two of this and you loose a lot of the effect that they are supposed to give!

The next question is one of location! If you sail on the sea then, post capsize, you can get as much coming back in over the gunwales as you could possibly bail out. Some dinghies can be right pigs when swamped, good examples of this could be the Bosun and early GP14's, you really can end up 'dead in the water'. If you do sail on 'Open' water then upgrading buoyancy can be a good move BUT REMEMBER - get it as low in the boat and securely fastened. An older Merlin (back in the Hamble days again)had a large triangular bag up forrard but it wasn't tied in properly. They capsized, the bag lifted and took the fore deck with is (which then punctured the bag).....leaving a swamped and very unhappy Merlin on the warsash/solent breeze shore for later collection.

If you are still floating - and sailable then it's bailers down, flaps open, get as far aft as stability allows before working the boat around onto a beam reach. Some say a broad reach is better but if you're swamped this does put you at risk of shipping water over the foredeck or worse still, catching the bow and skewing around for another swim!

As to the second theme of the string, how high or low your boat floats post capsize, this was always a problem with the Mirror 14 / Marauder! Floating high doesn't only help whip the boat away downwind but is a major factor in the hull turning turtle. Plus, for us oldies,, that pull up onto the centreboard can be a real no no. The mirror 14's solved the issue by having 'vented' side tanks that flooded in a capsize - which helped keep the hull much more manageable! These days I find a capsize in the Blaze (my 'other boat') a real problem, if I can't get straight over onto the plate, this is one boat that does float too high! Again the answer seems to be in keeping the available buoyancy very low in the boat but still sufficient to stop you from swamping once back upright.

BUT..all these points raise another 'ticklish' subject! Taking Gary and his Merlin as an example, the theory used to be that to have a certificate for a Merlin it should have passed a Buoyancy test. How many of us have stood in their boat, with a friend for company, with it full of water, submersed only as far as the knee - for 15 minutes while the measurer (warm and dry)drink his coffee? Other classes had similar requirements yet the amazing thing is that one rarely sees a test being conducted on any boat these days. Either I'm missing them somehow - or else this valuable requiremnt is not longer imposed - or has someone altered the laws of physics recently?????

D

Post by **Rupert** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:53 pm

The problem with buoyancy tests is that once a certificate has been seen, the organizers take on liability for the boat being seaworthy in a capsize, and could open themselves up to being sued, incredible as it might seem. Therefore, no one checks certificates any more, so tests are rarely carried out. I would also imagine that it relates to the demise of class racing at clubs. No one in a handicap race is going to demand to see a buoyancy certificate, are they?

nick · Post by **nick** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:17 pm

On JPA's note about CVRDA boats. There was a boat called a Bullet some years ago. As I recall it was a sort of minature Fireball. I don't remember the method exactly, but this had a feature whereby the buoyancy tanks converted into water-shedding conduits when the boat was brought upright. Maybe someone else remembers how they worked.

Nick