Just gently trolling....

[Ed]

I am just in progress of writing something about the history of CVRDA and looking over some of the original documents.

Reminded me of something interesting....

There has been some discussion (ongoing! about how the 'wings' work and what is 'in' the cvrda and what not.

Originally....before the cvrda was even a twinkle...etc etc...

Andy and I were going to make an association for Uffa Fox designs...

Then we thought lets open it to Uffa Fox and Fairey boats...

When I started organising the first Roadford, we needed the support of the club, which was full of old boats and wanted a wider range of visitors and as we were really trying to encourage people to come we pretty much allowed anybody who had any old boat (at this stage - the most likely name for association was KNOBS - KNackered Old Boats Society.

But interesting thing is this.....

When we sat back and thought about the 'wings' we first wrote up the rules the 'old' wing was for:

Pre-65 DEVELOPMENT classes over 25 years old.....but not for any of the other classes.

That was quickly opened up to what we have now, which is any class designed before 65 and boat over 25 years.

Any thoughts

cheers

eib

[davidh]

A good point Ed - and one that must be considered as soon the eligible older, development classes will include some quite 'hot' boats.Workingon the 25 year rule, you could soon have a twin wire asymmetrically rigged 14 - oh what fun to sail that at Baltic Wharf!

There is also the role the Association fulfils in providing a platform for the truley 'lost' classes - the Daring, Challenge, Mirror 14, Spearhead, yes, even the Unit!

Can we have a wing for people with pink sail numbers?

D

[stu]

keep the qualifying criteria the same, but add another wing for 'hot classics' or pot hunters as i like to call them :twisted: - discuss

[Rupert]

A wing of one, David?

It seems now we have hit the 1980's in the eligible boat thing, we are seeing the start of epoxy and foam sandwich being common, and many of those boats have survived well enough to still be competitive today. Oddly, few 1980's one designs are truely up to speed (just look at the Solos, GPs and Ents) but the Merlins and 12's can be, especially inland. I cannot see that being a problem as far as taking part in events, but I do wonder if we need to move the "wing" goalposts for next season? I'd like the Vintage fleet and the classic fleet combined, so all pre 1965 boats race together, which actually reflects what happens on the water. Handicaps can sort out the vintageness, as they do now. And then I'd like to see the Old fleet (like my 1978 plastic Solo) race with the Lost Classes, which I think we can do more to support. Therefore classes like the Mirror 14 and Tonic can be brought into the fold. We can then also activly encourage classic examples of one design classes that don't qualify (like early Contenders) to join in, as the Larks do now. These boats will certainly be less hitec than a 25 year old 14! And then I'd like all the Opens to run 2 sets of prizes for the fleets, rather than what is normal at the moment with 1st to 3rd overall and then sometimes wing winners.
Now shoot me down in flames!

[pegasus]

How about you have a vintage tuned wing, they start first with the cats poss, and carry a heavy handicap, you could do this with the contenders also if they are still competitive. I agree with merging the two old wings and how about having class trophys and highest scoring handicap adjusted boat get a prise @ the end of the year, i say boat rather than helm crew and boat as the boats tend to change helms through out the year

Greg

[davidh]

A won winged wonder!

Seriously though Rupert, again it's hammer right on the nail time.I'm busy doing research for the book that I hope will be 'The Contender Story' yet nowhere have I yet found any real interest in the older boats from the Class. What I did find though was an almost original 'Marine Packs' kit boat, probably dating from the very late 1960's. The idea was that the boat was build in ply as a multi chine hull and then the bilges were built up using plys strings and veneer.

As a boat it looked okay and is actually a little bit of sailing history but as a Contender - forget it. Even an early glass Rondar would probably out perform it so, unless I'm mistaken, this is another one to get 'lost' (all the more so as the owner wants a cool £1000 for it - when £200 could be a generous offer)

If someone turned up with a boat like that, complete with the Proctor C mast and naff sails they used to use, it's a fair bet the Merlins (the old Merlins that is) would beat him round the course, not to mention the shame of being beaten on the water by the Finns!

It's a hard life and far from fair!

D

[PeterV]

Good discussion. Should a Laser or Lark over 25 years old be eligible? They're both older designs than a 25 year old Merlin.
It goes back to the point of racing with CVRDA. I feel most people do not realise just how competitive some older boats are. The problem is that many people sail old boats with knackered sails and blame the boat for being slow. Yet my 1969 Lark (416) was pretty much as fast as a new one with good sails and my 1973 Laser came in the top 20 at the inlands out of over 100 boats, none of which, apart from me, was over 5 years old. However these are examples of good one designs. a 15 year old Merlin presumably is not competitive so who do you race it against? Hence the reason for the CVRDA.
I've a 1964 Finn which will never be competitive on today's handicap against a carbon mast, plastic sailed modern boat, yet my wooden 1973 Enterprise, which is down to weight and with a good set of sails is every bit as competitive as boats much newer.
I feel that almost any boat over 25 years old should be eligible. Some will be competitive if they're a good design, some will not be but the handicaps can sort that out. There isn't much point in racing a wooden enterprise with CVRDA but if my wife wants to sail with me we cannot both sail the Finn! Some might want to sail old Lasers, but why not? I agree with Ed that one division should handle the 'proper classics', with another class for the rest (I'm assuming for now that an old Laser falls into the second category, along with a plastic Solo!)

If Ed's writing about the history what about Andrew Thornhill's vintage days on the River Avon which could be said to have started the whole idea off?

[neil]

the key point is which is <b>any class designed before 65 and boat over 25 years</b>. so the Laser and Contender etc as the constitution stands are not eligable. A change to any boat over 25 years old will require a change in the constitution (that should get a few members at the AGM).

It's always going to be a difficult thing....to come up with a cut-off point, the 1965 one has worked so far, the big question is...will a change to include all boats over 25 years old increase numbers attending open events?

If anyone's interested the stuff on the CVRDA is for this conference http://www.rina.org.uk/rfiles/eventspag ... ochure.pdf, there's some frantic work going on at the moment as the paper is due in on Monday, and Andrew Thornhill's events kick the paper off.

[Rupert]

Bit late now, but I spent several weeks/months preparing AT's boats for the Bristol Avon events to lend out to people. Everything from a couple of Fairey Falcons through Firefly 7, 14's, a sailing and a rowing Duckling and even a fairey folding canoe. There were more, but I can't remember it all off hand. Finding sails, masts booms rudders etc that actually went together meant a few late nights. Logistically, getting everything there and back again was a nightmare. One memory was of David Peregrine Jones coming down from Tamesis, and finding when he had arrived that the trailer chock had come off, and the spike had gone through the bottom of the boat, leaving a 2" hole. Trouble was, the race started in 1/2 an hour...Luckily, I had duck tape & Plastic Padding and there was an old wooden box lying around, so we had him on the water in plenty of time! I had a right game getting it off after to do a proper mend!
Andrew had a knack of getting the sun to shine when needed, and those events stick in my mind as glorious, if tiring weekends!

[chris]

As someone has suggested above, a 25yr old merlin is most probably to design that is more recent than the design-year-cut-off of 1965. Althought the class itself, clearly, is pre-1965, the actual design ( and therefore the related technologiy) of that boat is too modern for us, as our constitution goes. An indriguing point that I don't think has occurred to us yet.

Some of the early foam sandwich boats have not survived that well in fact and have distorted apparently.

[alan williams]

Hi Guys it's also true that any Revolution Hornet or Coombes over 25years old is still capable of winning the Nationals or Europeans in the righthands. This is because the Hornet more or less became a one design in the truest sense with the birth of the Malcom Goodwin designed Revolution in the early 70' s. I would agree with Neil lets keep the rules as they are who wants to see another plastic ironing board getting in the way. I don,t want to sound snobby but what is the merit in having these mass produced manufactures own classes in the CVRDA. There is now a recent movement to form an Assoc. similar to FaST Sail for twohanded sitting out classes and the next thing I predict will be an Assoc. for singlehanders which do n't fit in to CVRDA wings. Lets stay with the Status Quo which seems to work well.
Happy New Year
Al

[chris]

I agree Alan.

[Garry R]

Ditto - Chris and Alan. I sail against old lasers every week so when I go to CVRDA I am looking out for for varnish and something out of the ordinary.

[keithr]

Putting my 2 pennyworth in I would certainly stay with the pre 65 and 25yrs old rule as the base and as we do now adjust the PY for those eligible boats that have been tuned to perfection.

They will soon shout if we penalise too heavy and they are not amongst the pots.

I dont think we have been far out using the on the day/event system of handicaps and we can always adjust after a race or two as Sailwave pops the results out quickly.

<b></b>I think overall we must keep it simple and easy and keep the fun element of racing these bitza's ( In my case anyway!!!) . Look how many more entrants we are acheiving of late so we must be doing something right.

Keith

[Pat]

I agree with sticking with the pre- 1965 and 25 years old. The "modern" boats can be suitably handicapped at present. The occasional concession for one particular old but ineligible boat at an event is fine - for example Lark 12 at Frensham where Phil's just out for a good sail and not after pots, but not as a regular thing.

It's said Mike Jackson had the Lark design in 65 but took some time to find a builder. This year is the class's 40th anniversary so sorry folks, we won't be at the Shearwater cvrda event as Lark 40 is going to her birthday party.
Peter V - didn't realise you once owned 416, she's still at Shearwater but rarely sailed.

Mervyn Allen has billed a number of our events for the vintage Merlins which will boost numbers. I've said I'll Sailwave the results on both handicaps - cvrda and vintage Merlin to get results for both travellers series. The comparison will be interesting.