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Chat about CVRDA events
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chris
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Post by chris »

the Annual General Meeting will take place at Clywedog. Hope you can attend (it won't, I'm sure interupt the bar).
If you can't make it but would like to make a point or raise an issue say so now and I will raise it .
below are the minutes from last year.(as yet to be voted as true and complete!)


Classic and Vintage Racing Dinghy Association
minutes of the 6th AGM held at Clewedog Sailing club Sunday 25th August.

1 Apologies. Rupert Whelan

2 Present Committee
Commodore-Ed Bremner , Secretary - Chris Barlow, Treasurer - Lois Barlow, Webmaster - Pat Jones
Fixtures Secretary - Position vacant as Rupert Whelan wishes to step down, Social Secretary - position vacant
Membership sec - Stu Budden, Catamarans and Lost Classes - Alan Williams
The above was voted as acceptable.

3 The minutes of the 2005 AGM were proposed as true by Howard Elcock and voted satisfactorily.

4 Commodore's report.
Ed started by saying he is open to being replaced by anyone feeling they could take over.
Still talking about a boat register for 'Old' boats.
Asked if all are happy to keep CVRDA web-based only. General mutterings of YES.
The voluntary sub of £5 was taken at the Nationals - most volunteered. It could be taken at any event (some discussion ensued.) A good year with the new venue of Brightlingsea being well received.
Some thought's for next year's Nationals. (Not concluded).
Discussion about taking a stand at Dinghy show... (at £600 not thought possible) People may take fliers.
Good to link up more with Vintage Wings of classes (merlins, 12s, 14s) This is already starting to happen.



5 Treasurer's report
Lois explained that the Cost of the Roadford Nationals was high, but on the other hand the income from the voluntary £5 sub was good . The Roadford nationals covered costs with just a small surplus.
Annual running costs can be kept to about £300 as a working round figure. ( Running expenses are: RYA subs, Web costs etc. not including running events) Assuming no mailing etc and keeping web-based.

Keith Rollinson pointed out that about £250 would be coming to the CVRDA from the takings at this year's Nationals at Clywedog.

Accounts accepted by vote (proposed by Howard)

Fixtures
Ed, on behalf of the absent Rupert, summed up the forthcoming vennues for events.
Baltic Warf, Brightlingsea, Frensham (may change date) Chippenham (small and friendly), No Plymouth this year. Bowmoor is a possibility (didn't happen) . Roadford is keen to have us back (this happened as a good weekend event). Netley is keen - we have said yes. Ken Goddard and the Nat 12s says there is to be a big anniversarry at Trent Valley Club. Howard pointed out what a lovely old fashioned venue it is Most reccomended. Ed said it would be good to support their event. (sadly a few of us were planning to go but flooding caused the cancellation of this event).
Scottish possibilities Loch Lomond, Loch Tummell(?) and Rob T in the Outer Hebrades were all mentioned)
Baltic Warf as the Ice breaker was confirmed.


Web
Pat has now made a good start on mastering being webmaster.
All agreed the forum was excellent and well used.

AOB
a mention of Fowey week - just turn up!

date /place of next meeting ...During the Nationals 2007

END OF MEETING Chris Barlow sec.
nick
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Post by nick »

Chris

Firstly, accept my apologies for not being present at the AGM.

Secondly, I think the meeting should discuss the question of design age for development classes. We say generally that a design needs to over 40 years old, and the boat over 25 years old to qualify, but if we accept boats over 25 years old in these classes we must accept that the design may also be only 25 years old. Whilst I want to be as inclusive as the next bloke, and I know we can adjust the handicaps accordingly, I still feel that there is an anomaly here which needs addressing, as advances in dinghy and rig design mean that arbitrarily lowering the PY by number-band may not be sufficient to offset the design gain.

All the best

Nick
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Ed
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Post by Ed »

I am happy to bring up this question at the AGM.

However it is a hot subject and traditionally we do make an effort to keep the meeting down to under an hour.

The better place to discuss this may well be here on the Forum, where I suspect we get a wider selection of the main membership and everyone is more likely to have the ability to say their bit.

For what it is worth, my feeling is that the '25-year-old-gets-you-in' was always a bit of bodge-decision which was likely sooner or later to come into problems. I do think that the real problem is epoxy-foam boats now getting close to 25 years old. A 25 year old wooden boat, especially one from a highly stressed dev class was likely to be non-competative in its modern fleet and quite possibly therefore within the ethos of CVRDA. However a epoxy-foam boat from a class, which has seen less dramatic recent development could well be still competitive within its modern fleet and really outside the CVRDA ethos.

I certainly agree that it really has got to be watched. (by the way the rule is design pre-65 rather than a rolling 40 years) But on the whole think it is not beyond being dealt with by our adjustable PY numbering system. There are already real problems with trying to provide good racing between a 1940s boat and a 1960s one, let alone a 1980 one. We always knew this which was why we had 3 wings 'Vintage, 'Classic' and 'Old'. We try and get the handicaps right across the wings, but it may well be an impossible task.

The question I always ask myself is: "If I really wanted to win this race - what boat would I choose?" As long as the general thought is that it is easier in a 1980 boat rather than a 1950 one then we don't have the handicap really right!

The CVRDA started with the idea of providing racing for boats designed and built before 1965. We then opened it to boats over 25 years old to allow a number of dev class boats that were no longer competitive within their class races. The numbers may well be wrong, but I think the ethos is still good.

cheers

eib

will certainly ask around for opinions at Nats
Ed Bremner
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chris
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Post by chris »

Is our definition...'classes designed before so-and-so' or is it 'Designs before so-and-so'
Not quuite the same thing.
Discuss.

Note that merlins have now a band for old boats in their nationals as follows 'Prime of Life'= 10 to 20 year olds, 'Mature' over 20years.
So I should sail Iska (no.6) on a level pegging with no. 3392?
That don't make sense to me. ( I quess they recon anyone with a much older boat isn't interested (or interesting).
But try this too. In the Vintage wing we don't use the old boat handicaps that the merlins issue for all old boats, we all sail first past the post. That don't make sense either.
But then no one in the merlins is prepared to address the problem of state of tune. For instance the other day I was sailing against a similar aged boat to 507 that had carbon rig, kevlar etc. etc. While there is nothing wrong with updating and old hull I don;t think you can still say it is a vintage boat. there does need to be a system like ours to equate a truely vintage vessel.

At a slight tangent I did feel it was a sad sight to see hundred year old A Raters all with modern rig - and yet they still give a handicap to the old ones!

So I feel it comes back to the question do we define that the class must be pre-65 or the design must be pre '65?


Chris
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Post by Rupert »

Please give my apologies again. And I make no comments on the above, save to say that so long as people turning up in a flash new (by cvrda standards) boat don't complain about being given a handicap where they have to push the boat a lot harder to win, then it should all work out. A 1946 Merlin with original bits should be nursed round the course, and a 1982 Merlin with modern rig should be thrashed to an inch of it's life. Handicaps need to reflect this.
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Ed
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Post by Ed »

I think the rules are quite clear and specific.....although certainly open to much interpretation :-)

It depends on the 'wing', but basically the class must be pre-65 and the boat built over 25 years old, which implies the design must at least also be over 25 years old.

Vintage Wing - Boats made using traditional methods - no glue, ribs, nails etc. The original idea was that these boats should also be pre-55 ish. A prime example would be a 1940s Holt Merlin. Because so few vintage boats ever turned up this was loosened to be any boat traditionally made over 25 years old - mainly to include the Tideways.

Classic Wing - Boats Designed and made before 1965. This was the original core concept for the CVRDA. Boats to include Fairey Marine Boats, Glued Clinker boats, Stich & Glue etc etc.

Old Wing - Boats over 25 years old from a 'class' established before 1965. This meant that you could race a 25 year old design from a development class that was established before 1965, but not a 'new' class. So a 1975 Merlin was OK, but a 1975 Laser, Marauder or Phantom was not. This was originally done to open up CVRDA racing to a wide range of boats, in the Dev classes that were often beautiful boats but no longer competitive in their class fleets. But also trying to protect Racing from becoming more and more polluted with a range of 'new' classes.

As for the vintage merlin racing handicaps (or lack of).....I have never understood it either. Many years ago, I talked to a couple of Merlin Helms at UTSC about it.....their attitude was that they felt their boats were just as fast on the river (and 40 years of development useless?????)as new boats and there was therefore no point! But it is strange, they did quite a bit of work to get the RYA to recognise the age-related sliding PY for club racing and then don't use it for their own vintage racing.

I think they should handicap and still have quite a bit of faith in the CVRDA system - totally agreeing with Rupert.

cheers

eib
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Post by JimC »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ed</i>
For what it is worth, my feeling is that the '25-year-old-gets-you-in' was always a bit of bodge-decision which was likely sooner or later to come into problems. I do think that the real problem is epoxy-foam boats now getting close to 25 years old. A 25 year old wooden boat, especially one from a highly stressed dev class was likely to be non-competative in its modern fleet and quite possibly therefore within the ethos of CVRDA. However a epoxy-foam boat from a class, which has seen less dramatic recent development could well be still competitive within its modern fleet and really outside the CVRDA ethos. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I think its just a question of keeping an eye on the rest of the boat spec and being vicious with handicaps really. 25 years is within the foam/epoxy era for Cherubs for instance, although serious numbers of foam boats didn't really appear until about 1986/7. There is one 1979 built Kevlar foam Cherub in the UK with a spectacular racing record... If she were to come along to a Classic event with pole kite and tin mast, then all well and good, but if she turned up wih carbon mast, latest size sails etc then handicap to the grave.

Ideally I think we should ask that boats should be substantially in a condition that they *could* have sailed in within the 25 year limit...

Things will get trickier in about 2015 when the foam boats really started to take over, but hopefully being sensible about updates like platic spars will help, although carbon spar for Cherubs will start being legit from 2017!
chris
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Post by chris »

agree with all the above thoughts.
I'm planning to hold a CottonSail trophy event at Shearwater (perhaps on the saturday). There are at least 4 merlins that should enter and Rogers Hornet has a cotton spinnaker (mainsails look like a varnished cotton but must be some sort of early synthetic), John's old grad has cotton. Don't quite know parameters yet so it might be..pre 59, totally original or something rather than purely cottonsail. Would be nice to get a couple of 12's or 14s too. Aimed to encourage the Vintageness of the Vintage wing. Prize: a trophy plus a vintage bottle of something.
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Post by Pat »

Mervyn said the Merlin Vintage Trophy was on Merlin handicaps and so that's what we used at Brightlingsea. It still doesn't address the carbonated oldies problem though, hence my preference for cvrda handicaps.
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Post by davidh »

Whoever it was that said that this forum was the place for having the discussion had it spot on I thik. Try to have a chat like this in the bar and yu'll get huge statements, that are then flatley refuted, followed by personal abuse - and ever was it so!

Of course there are going to be anomolies when the Association is trying to maintain it's 'broad brush appeal', making the event as inclusive as possible. As an example, just before the Netley event, a club member made contact, he has a very old Contender. Now the Contender is a very late 1965/early 1966 design - as indeed is the Unit. His boat dates from 1975 so is more than 30 years old. As a Contender it is totally outclassed - and judging by the performance on the Sunday, even against the other classics it would struggle to bother the scorer.

Should this be 'in or out'? Had the owner been free to sail on the Saturday I'd have probably said 'in' - a little bit of new blood can do no harm and as, if I'd not been officiating, I'd have been in the Unit, it seemed churlish to say 'no'.

So - today, at least to me, the problem is managable. If we start getting ringers turning up, we have fexibility with the h'cap system to address the issue. If it really becomes a problem, then maybe a firmer decision to say 'NO' might have tobe taken. I did at Netley when someone who I felt was not entering in the right spirit asked to come along with what I felt was a very questionable Wayfarer. He got told, bluntly, that it 'wasn't that sort of event' and though he grumbed he stayed clear!

Of course - many of the 'lost' classes that we would love to see are well after the 1965 date - the Spearhead being just one example, the Typhoon, Ghost, Harrier, Mirror's 14 and 16 being other notables.

Lets leave things pretty much as they are but keep that watching brief - mainly I would guess on the development classes where the problem will hit soonest and hardest.

Good luck at the weekend

David and Pauline
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Post by alan williams »

Hi having raced a revolution Hornet at CVRDA events I always sailed off the current yardstick converted into the equivalent 1965 CVRDA this I found was the best solution as 25year Revo's with good rigs and helms are still capable of winning major events.This is proberbly true for other one design classes. As regards hoting up really old boats with carbon masts, kevlar- carbon sails and changing them by the addition of centre main sheet systems, spinnaker shutes etc I say adjust their handicaps accordingly and if they don't like it tough.

Al
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Post by PeterV »

I agree with Alan. If I were to sail my Enterprise in a CVRDA event (it is eligible) I would expect the same handicap as a modern one, since it's pretty much as competitive. However my Finn is nothing like as fast as a modern one so I expect a handicap adjustment. I feel the purpose of CVRDA is so that I can race a boat which is uncompetitive within a modern fleet on a level playing field (or lake) so there's not much point turning up with a boat which is equally at home in a modern fleet.
However, taking this further raises the question of the 1965 design rule. I think the CVRDA should be lenient to other older boats which are equally outdated (e.g a 1969 designed Baker Lark) since it's still an older design than an eligible early 1980s Merlin.
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Post by Pat »

I agree with allowing the odd few boats that are well outdated within their class, with suitable handicaps of course. Maybe we now need to split the old section into two again since a 1966 boat and a 1982 boat of the same class are usually very unequal. "Old" and "Mature" maybe?

But note that since the Lark was designed, re designed, tested, redesigned and re-tested a few times, and enough produced by early 1967 to form a class association, it was obviously designed 65 or earlier and anecdotal evidence (those Exmouth sailors who remember testing!) agrees with that.

The class is actually forming a Classic fleet and the new Chairman, Simon, is looking for a cheapo restorable Baker for himself! Lark 12 is still going well although it has been strengthened (within class rules) with some cross bracing to prevent it folding up. We had a Classic section at the Inlands and sailed Lark 40, the old club boat which is pretty much original, with original (poor) sails too, to second place! Would there be possibilities for a joint event of some sort maybe?

Please could everyone spread the word amongst the clubs and let's get those old Baker Larks on the water instead of languishing in the dinghy parks as uncompetitive.
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Post by Rupert »

The Lark originally made it in because there was enough doubt as to the design date to mean it was better to include a class that might not qualify than to exclude one that does. Luckily, and one of the things I like about the cvrda, is that there is no "wood Good, Glass Bad" ethos - an old boat qualifies whatever the building material. I'd love to see more Larks out, as they are a design classic of the mid 60's. And the Contender's design, even if not in the round bottomed form of 1967, can be traced back further, in much the same way as a development class is allowed (I'm sure David H or Chris 249 can enlighten us as to when the hard chine version as first seen), so personally I'd be happy to see them playing too. It certainly would widen the scope for fast singlehanders, which currently is limited to Canoes (and the Unit?!). Fast on PY that is, as I'm sure the many Finn and OK sailors are happily beating canoes on the water!
Rupert
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