Roadford - your thoughts please

Chat about CVRDA events
chris
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Post by chris » Tue May 24, 2005 8:35 am

Thinking ahead to our main event at Roadford over the August bank holiday...
Planning is going ahead well. Our main stumbling block is to do with the food. The main 'social' on Sunday evening caused us a lot of bother last year. 1) there are no facilities there whatsoever (kitchen-wise that is)
2 numbers have just about outgrown the barn's capacity (100+ people sat down for the meal) 3 Most of the people involved with the organizatiopn also what to be there to sail primarily. There didn't seem an easy way to order, set up, serve out the meal. We also felt the cost was higher than we would like to offer.
Last year we over did the monday tea as many people had set off home before tea. So we lost money on that.

Your suggestions and offers of help please.

We are considering...
a Hog roast
a catering firm to come in do the lot.
using the new cafe facilities across the lake.

If you have any local knowledge of contacts or other suggestions and offers of help (indeed about any aspect of 'Roadford' ) please say.

Thanks, the Roadford committee.

alan williams
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Post by alan williams » Tue May 24, 2005 9:11 am

Hi Chris
Alister's daughter does catering. He will be about at the weekend. She normally caters for the weekends (whitson event. We could ask her then.
Cheers Al

chris
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Post by chris » Wed May 25, 2005 8:33 am

Yes please Alan, can you find out more form her please. What do you and Shona think we should do?

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Post by stu » Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:49 pm

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE can you organise it so that Roadford has more toilet facilities for the weekend.

At the recent open, there were no extra loos. First thing in the morning, if you did not get up with the car alarm (you had to be there), you would have had to queue for ages for contemplation time, and even then you felt under pressure to contemplate as quickly as possibel!!! :evil:
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Post by neil » Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:24 pm

We thought the Hog Roast we had at Roadford for the Whitsun open was pretty good value (though don't even think about booking the band they had, the Country and Western version of a certain Guns and Roses track still brings me out in a cold sweat).

As I have been known to like the occassional pint, the real ale (Doom bar) was excellent so could I put in a request for some decent beer. Though with the lack of toilets I suppose too much beer is a bad idea.
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Post by Mark » Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:25 am

Hmmm....Axel Rose is alive and living in Devon ?
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Post by Rupert » Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:56 am

The advantage of small kids camping is that they wake you before the car alarms...hmmm, not much of an advantage, really, is it!
My own personal thing (being poor and mean) is to keep the entry price down as low as possible, and sell tickets for any food things separately. A hog roast could work, as it would be run by an outside caterer, I would guess. The other option is a bring your own BBQ, with CVRDA supplying the coals. So long as people know before they come, it would be OK, though I've not quite worked out the keeping the meat cool bit...

As for the sailing side of things, are any changes wanted? Chris will be running the Sat, with non racing events, and I'll be OOD for the Sun and Mon. Anyone know the depth of water likely to exist by then?
Mark came up with a good idea for splitting the results, if we feel we want to. He pointed out that there tend to be 2 types of boat at CVRDA events. Classics, where a design happens to be pre65, and the boat over 25, but where the aim is to have a fairly up together boat. I would put Saskia, the Peggies and more modern 12s and Merlins in such a group, along with many others. I guess it would include all the "old" boats, and the updated "classics".
The other group would be Historic, where the boats have been kept or rebuilt as original. Boats which fit this catagory would include Iska, J3, Rannoch, Tideways(?) and the like. They are boats where speed wasn't the aim of the game, but originality. Cotton sails on any boat would put them in the historic group, I would think.
The current "Vintage" fleet would be included, and the as original "classics"
Any thoughts on whether this would make for better in fleet racing? I still wouldn't be suggesting a separate start unless numbers got too big to cope with, merely a fairer way of dividing the prizes to make allowance of the aims of the owner!
Rupert

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Post by Pat » Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:07 am

Personally we aren't bothered about the prizes, just looking forward to having a good race on a big lake with some decent winds and lots of good beer, food and company!
Looks like there will be a large flock of migrating Shearwaters there!
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Post by chris » Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:12 am

Rupert, I think the suggestion of your two fleets is a good possibility. I have felt that our current vintage/classic/old throws up some oddities although our handicapping for state-tune etc. does help a lot. I have felt in the Merlin vintage wing that there should be some consideration for this as Iska with 50-60year old original cotton sails has to compete against boats nearly thirty years younger with updated carbon rigs, ropes everywhere and this year's kevlar sails. Usually the first race is 'straight' and the second a pursuit based on the results of the first, but I don't think that is a good answer.
My view is that I like to see 'historic boats' (however you define that)in original condition. But I have no problem with someone that has a hull of a certain age that has been kept up to date with current class rules.
The CVRDA should be about conservation/preservation and restoration of boats that would otherwise be abandonded, and to get them sailing . - judging by the forum plenty of people are doing just that.
I think this year there will be a few more boats at Roadford that will fall into your 'historic' class and it could be a good way forward.

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Post by alan williams » Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:41 pm

Hi Chris
Can we start the Cats First and get them out of the way?
Alistairs Daughter I think organised the Hog Roast, we would need 2pigs with numbers involved. Checked with Keith re cost of lauching he's saying lauching fee's same as last year but he has to check with the new guy. Will get Alistair's daughters number for you. Food very good but would have liked bigger pud.
Cheers Al
PS will check on the 24th if any change in lauching fees. I also need to talk to Roger recommittee boat and whether they are going to put any conditions on it's use.

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Post by Rupert » Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:14 pm

Hi Alan - from an OOD's view getting the cats off the startline first is a great idea - they really like to do things differently to the monos. I've in the past suggested splitting the fleet into fast and slow handicap, which would have had cats starting with jollyboats ospreys etc, but the general view of the membership seemed to be that they wanted a general start. Happy to do as many start sequences as needed or wanted. If views have changed on the fast/slow thing, tell me here! My view would be PY of 92 or lower is fast, and that it becomes difficult to tell who sailed better once the PY spread becomes too great. But I quite understand the view that a slowly sailed fast boat can have a good race against a well sailed slow boat, and that if the fleet is split that won't happen.
Rupert

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Ed
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Post by Ed » Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:48 pm

Well for my pennyworth.....

I have always suggested a few different starts....I think it would really improve starts.....but then so would just making the start line a bit bigger!!!

I know some might not like this.....but personally I like seperate starts....but not seperate fleets.

So....I would like 2 or 3 starts at short interval.....since we are classic, why not like the old days and have them at 3 min intervals. Personally I would still set the slow boats off first and then make the fast boats sail through them....although realise this might not be so hot for cats.

For the results I would just put the whole fleet back together again, adding the 3 mins to second flight of boats. If the interval is short, it keeps everyone racing together for longer. It give some slight advantage to the slower boats....but makes it more social and I would say fun for all.

Personally I like the wings as they stand with results for each of these type of boats which still seem quite distinct to me....

If you take this too logical end......the only difference is staggering the start....it can be cut in many different ways:

Race One

Wing One PY over 100
Wing Two Py under 100

Race two

Wing One 14ft and under
Wing Two Over 14ft

Race Three

Wing One Vintage
Wing Two Classic
Wing Three Old

In each case the later wings just have 3 mins added to time, thus evening them out. Of course there can be problems if there is either lots of wind or no wind in the 3 mins start period......but handicap racing is never fair....and trying to get a good start in a N12 next door to a Cat and a Jollyboat is hardly fair either.

I think this method gives 'good fun' racing and that is what is all about as far as I am concerned.

As far as the idea of a 'historic' wing goes......yea....wouldn't dismiss it out of hand....but I feel the real problem is that the 'historic' boats simply do not get given a realistic handicap. Rupert, Chris and I have talked about this in past.....and for my money I would suggest that we again look very closely at the handicaps for any boat in original condition and modify the handicap as necessary to provide these boats with a realistic PY.

I still feel that until we actually make it an advantage to keeping a boat in original trim....then those that wish to sail in original boats will never have a chance of winning....how ever well they are sailed.....which is not what it is all about.

Any thoughts?

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Post by Rupert » Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:20 pm

Hmm, just been through the last couple of year's results looking at the wings, updatedness and (very subjective by me) sailor skill. Interestingly, wings are represented pretty evenly down the fleet, until you look at individual cases, where ot seems you need a Tideway or a Dolphin to do well, especially in a breeze. Vintage development classes fair poorly.

As far as updatedness goes, while there are a few originals doing well (my old Minisail came 2nd 2 years ago, thanks to a lack of beats) most of the top 10 have been kept up to date, including the vintage boats, apart from the notable exception of the Dolphin, which does well year after year, suggesting we have got the handicap pretty much OK there, for a change!

The major problem is that all the updated boats in the top 10 are sailed by people who know one end of a boat from the other. Boats which do well when not majorly updated (Roger's Hornet, for instance) are also sailed well...
Looking further down the list, the mix of updated and as original boats is too muddled to get much from, without knowing how they'd hve done with a general boat swap.

So, my conclusion is: Most people who keep their classic boat looking as it did the day it was born spend too much time varnishing and not enough time learning to sail fast. Therefore any alteration of handicaps to bring as original boats up into the top few will always involve a measure of personal handicapping. Personally, I have no problem with this at all, as varnishing skill makes the cvrda events better for us all, and should be encouraged...
My suggestion (and I was hoping I could come up with a formula that could be applied across the board, but have failed) is that the handicapping committee keep the handicap relationships of the updated boats pretty much as they are (a good spread of boats do well) but are more generous when looking at both the wood mast/cotton sails brigade, and when dealing with boats which simply have old and tired kit, even if it isn't officially "different".
As I'll be on the committee boat, I should get a much clearer picture following this year's event.

BTW, do only 3 of us care about this, anyway?! I do live a sad life, it has to be said...and my great oppotunity to have an as original boat to sail (the ToY) has been blown big time - I like fiddling too much!
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Post by Mark » Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:25 pm

There is also the fact that modernised rigs are more flexible, and therefore more competitive over a wider range of conditions, and also no one really wants to follow Chris's example and end up with their wooden mast collapsing in a shower of splinters. I must confess that I am seriously considering modernising the rig on our N12 (along with a lighter plate) if only to make her manageable on the river.
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Post by chris » Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:59 am

Whatever is done in the handicapping way of things need to be specified for all CVRDA events. Roadford is easy in that we are all there and a handicap committee can tweak things on the spot if there are adjustments for individual boats. These py's need to be published or kept on the CVRDA website so that organisisers of other events can and should use them, (and perhaps suggest miodifications I they feel it's appropriate) ( I had said I would draft out an info sheet for event organisers with just this in mind - will try and do it soon).

As said any handicap system can't be perfect all of the time in all conditions. Our system will inevitably end up with an element of skill factor in it as the aren't even pairs of identical boats in the same state of new/original tune to compair and eliminate the skill element. (Hopefully John's merlin 36 will be ready for Roadford and that should be exactly the same as Iska which should be fun.) But I don't think that matters at all, if anything it's a good thing. Some of our sailors may spend too much varnishing, others may only brush off the cobwebs from Grandpa's old dinghy once ayear and hoist up some screwed up old sails without checking how far the rot has spread from last year. Others may only sail their delicate pride and joy a few times a year and don't want to sail her too hard anyway. Then for others they are sailing their everyday boat. I think it is quite right to take all this in to account to give everyone a good chance and good race. I think we are on the right track and I thouroughly agree with favouring boats in original condition. In the future it will become more important to see boats in original condition.
I think a lot of people just want to join in rather than go all out to win.

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