Roadford - your thoughts please

Chat about CVRDA events
chris
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:43 pm
Location: somerset

Post by chris » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:06 am

Just another thought...
Colmere a few years ago.
I can't remember what handicaps were used there but the results were something like this: in each race the first five places changed around but in all races there was less than a minute separating these five. Yes it was quite a small fleet on a small lake very good racing and therefore enjoyment.

User avatar
neil
Site Admin
Posts: 1636
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:33 pm
Location: Plymouth

Post by neil » Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:53 pm

Can I point out that that Roadford is a rally so it's not that helpful to see comments such as "<i>Most people who keep their classic boat looking as it did the day it was born spend too much time varnishing and not enough time learning to sail fast</i>". Please note that not finishing in the top 10 does not necessarily correlate to not knowing one end of a boat from the other.

CVRDA is not just about racing although you would think that it is the be all and end all of any event. Personally, I'm not going to risk a 60 year old mast for anyone, and if it skews the handicaps by having a fast boat go slowly then so be it.

Surely at the end of the day it's about getting these boats on the water, not just about going fast. I suppose it depends how you interpretate the initials CVRDA, is it an association to race dinghies or an association about racing dinghies?
IC: K26
Harrier +: 2

Zenith's rebuild - www.pegasus18.com/zenith

Rupert
Posts: 6254
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Cotswold Water Park

Post by Rupert » Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:50 pm

Neil, as you will have read if you carried on reading what I wrote, I quite agree that racing fast isn't everything, and that nice boats are just as important to the cvrda. However, the idea is to try and make racing as even as we can for the various styles of classic boat we have. The fact that you are not going to push Rannoch anything like as hard as I would push Saskia is the whole point - unlike "normal" handicap racing, we are trying to find ways of taking this into account, but there are so many variables finding a solution not based on wandering round the boat park at events is proving difficult. While Roadford is a rally, I'm sure that you would like Rannoch to have a handicap that will give a result that reflects your race. If (like you) you do know one end of the boat from the other, then you should be able to get similar results from Rannoch as you would in a newer canoe - which would probebly put you in the top 10.
As for skewing the results - we are trying to make sure that handicaps are skewed to allow for fragility, so results aren't skewed.
This is, as you say, a very small part of the cvrda, but one that it would be nice to get right.
Rupert

User avatar
stu
Site Admin
Posts: 404
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 1:47 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Post by stu » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:21 pm

Handicaps are available for download as a .csv file from the home/news page of the website. If adjustments are felt appropriate I can update the file as and when.

Roadford is all things to all men. Some have lovely boats and sail them fast, some have tatty boats and sail them fast, some sail their tatty boats slow, and others sail their varnished boat slow. I do neither. My not immaculate, but not tatty boat, that has been reasonably modernised, is sailed very badly, and rarely a tack goes by without some sort of incident - How do you compensate for that. When I get it to go it goes like stink, when it falls over it stinks!

Keep the cvrda events for all, those that want to race hard and those who want to bring their lovely boat and potter, and all those in between.

It is a rally for the CLASSIC & VINTAGE RACING dinghy association.:)
The only canoe sailor in MY village too !

8) OK K1958
8) Mirror 34459

http://www.stuandliz.co.uk

****************************
make bow waves not chat
****************************

chris
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:43 pm
Location: somerset

Post by chris » Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:42 am

Hear,hear or is it here,here?

roger
Posts: 3026
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:08 pm
Location: Frome Somerset UK

Post by roger » Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:49 am

Couldnt have put it better myself. The friendly nature of CVRDA is what makes it so good. If I wanted serious shouting match type racing I would buy something plastic and sail somewhere where winning or losing doesnt rely on who gets the only piece of wind on the puddle.
Whilst the handicaps are interesting you are never going to please all the people all the time and they can become very devisive as we found at Shearwater a few years ago.
Please keep it as friendly rivalry and not get too serious.

Just my 2p worth ....oh sorry should be 1d in old money.
Hornet 191 Shoestring,
Hornet 595 Demon awaiting restoration
Hornet 610 Final Fling
Hornet 353

keithr
Posts: 594
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:09 pm
Location: Welshpool
Contact:

Post by keithr » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:15 pm

Re: Colemere

You are right chris though I think we were all sailing original condition boats with old sails/rig but skill factor was fairly even throughout the fleet so handicap was about right.

The skill factor will always come in but there hasn't really been a runaway winner at any event as the corrected times if I remember have been very close between the top contenders on the day.

We will never get it right for everyone but I think a pretty good job is being done. A well kept boat with decent sails/rig and a good helm will always be in contention.

keith
Two Peggies 199,100,
Flying fifteen 1855,
Flying fifteen 204 (now in the barn)
Sunbird

User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3485
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Post by Ed » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:24 pm

Handicaps are never fair.....and they are very hard to work out....

but they are great when they do work......

just like persuits....sometimes they don't work....and sometimes you get a whole bundle of boats all bunch together as you watch the seconds count down....great fun.

or as chris said you have an event and the winner changes every race and the adjusted times are all much the same.....that really is fun.

the real knub of it....as rupert was trying to get at is:

the cvrda is about encouraging old....vintage, classic, historic or whatever boats to race in equality with the other old boats.

The question is 'how do you quantify the difference in speed (and therefore py no) between a boat that is very original and one that has been heavily renovated?'

I would suggest that as long as someone (and there are a few ;-) ) who really 'wants to win' feels that they must choose an 'old' boat recently renovated rather than a 'vintage' boat that has never been renovated.....then we havn't yet got the handicap right yet. I go further, I think the handicap should encourage owners to keep their boats as 'original' as possible.

Now.....for me personally.....I have tried sailing boats in totally original form....and would humbly suggest that I really can't be bothered with: cotton sails....galvinised rigging....flax/cotton sheets. and don't want to use them any more than I want to dress in woolies and oilskins. I adore old boats, but don't feel 'too' bad about changing those 'ephemeral' parts such as sails, sheets, rigging etc to their modern equivalent as they just make the boat 'go' so much better....which just means more fun to me. I really admire those who want to sail boats in totally original form.....just don't want to do it myself. However I do feel they should be rewarded for their efforts in a much better handicap than they currently have.

Incidentaly we are not the only sport with this quandry, classic race cars can all now go much faster than they ever did when they were first made.....better rubber, better lubrication, better fuel, better road surfaces, all mean they go much faster...and safer than they ever did.

Of course this could in the end steer us towards 'specific boat' handicaps rather than class based ones. The problem here is it can so easily become a 'helm handicap' and I think we all would prefer to miss that.

However....I have always dreamt that we would be able to introduce a 'register of boats' and with that a suggested py for each boat set against a set recorded condition. So you would have a cvrda registration form with a cvrda plaque/number on transom, this would cross refer to a measurement form that would include the 'state of originallity' of the boat, what sails, what mast etc etc and then a recommended py for that boat, maybe with notes for the race committe. "This boat sails very well in low winds on river, but would need a lot of help in a sea event" or whatever.

When a boat was sold, it would take with it it's cvrda racing registration document and this could always be cross reffered to the CVRDA's database.

It's more work than I think I want/can do at present.....but it might be able to be something that could come out of any involvement with the NMMC's small boat register.

Any thoughts welcome

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

keithr
Posts: 594
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:09 pm
Location: Welshpool
Contact:

Post by keithr » Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:53 pm

re ed's plaque

Sounds like the infamous defra inspired cattle movement/passport system, and those of us in the farming community know how many depts and people are needed to run that and still fail miserably !!!!

Just Joking !!!!!! maybe I should put a flying cow instead of Horse on sails.

Keith
Two Peggies 199,100,
Flying fifteen 1855,
Flying fifteen 204 (now in the barn)
Sunbird

User avatar
pegasus
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:36 pm
Location: Hampshire United Kingdom

Post by pegasus » Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:23 pm

Can someone please confirm that the roadford event is on i wish to come with my new peggie just boat form adam and brendan from roadford ( the people who capsized on the line last year with the 505 spinny up!!)
Thank you greg
P.S. Can someone update the homepage please.
Pegasus 166(The Darkside) SOLD
Cherub 2646 Madge

Rupert
Posts: 6254
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Cotswold Water Park

Post by Rupert » Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:02 pm

Yes Roadford is on, over August Bank hols. People start arriving friday or earlier, and Sat is a fun/cruising day, with votes for best boats at some point, I would think. Sunday will involve racing for all those who wish, hopefully low key for most (for some it never will be, but I'm OOD this year, so the Peggies will have to play hardball with others!) with 3 races I should think. Monday will be more of the same, unless requested otherwise! Prize giving to follow. Proper details I'm sure will come from Chris, as spokesman for the orgainizers!
Rupert

User avatar
stu
Site Admin
Posts: 404
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 1:47 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Post by stu » Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:36 pm

Yep, Roadford is on.

Links are available to ALL 2005 events from the homepage. Just click with your mouse on the underlined words "Dates set for 2005", under the very large "2005".

To access all the detail I have at the moment; click, with your mouse, on the underlined "National Rally".

Reports from Past events are not there, As i have hd none, neither have I had results !

There is also plenty of information on the Event, and 'chat' on this forum.

As for updating of the homepage, what extra do you want to see?

My time is a bit stretched at the moment, so being creative is not always possible. I will certainly put specifics if appropriate?

Or maybe, if someone has more time and the inclination, they should speak to Ed and take it over from me? iT certainly is not a 5 minute job;)
The only canoe sailor in MY village too !

8) OK K1958
8) Mirror 34459

http://www.stuandliz.co.uk

****************************
make bow waves not chat
****************************

nick clibborn
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:22 pm

Post by nick clibborn » Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:27 pm

I'm pretty sure Charles sent details of the Frensham results to both Chris and Rupert.

Nick

Rupert
Posts: 6254
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Cotswold Water Park

Post by Rupert » Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:18 pm

I've sent mine on - I'd not realized they'd not gone there already. Anyone done a report?
Rupert

Post Reply