Nationals 2013

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Nessa
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Nationals 2013

Post by Nessa » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:08 am

Hunts Sailing Club is delighted to be hosting this event over the August Bank Holiday next year. We have a good supply of local qualifying boats so turnout should be very good, camping will be available on site, and our catering is usually spot on. We will also buy in some special barrels of East Anglia brew for the bar!

But what about on the water events? We are keen to get this right, with good sailing to suit everyone, so I want to get feedback from you guys as to what you want. As a start point how about:

Saturday morning: boat set up and concourse with streamers on the shrouds
afternoon: parade of sail and pursuit, including continuation of concourse
evening: bbq with social sailing/boat try outs.

Sunday: racing all day, two back to back in the morning, two more in the afternoon, probably race length of around 40 minutes. Fleet starts for those classes with 6 or more entries? Or just one fleet start race?
evening: Championship dinner, somewhere suitable locally ie walking distance (gives the galley slaves a break)

Monday: racing in the morning EITHER full pursuit OR handicap racing
prize giving and picnic lunch

None of this is set in stone: we want to hear your ideas and get as much decent sailing in as possible. We are combining with the de May series and also probably the Signet class.
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davidh
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Re: Nationals 2013

Post by davidh » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:51 am

Nessa,

with the experience of running the Netley Nationals for the CVRDA - not to mention countless other events, I'd resspectfully suggest that Sunday's plans might be a tad ambitious! 4 races in a day is hard work even more the modern classes with 'fully functional' crews. But there is more; with 4 races in a day, you're biasing the sailing towards those who can not only handle 4 races a day, but can still be sailing effectively on the last beat of the 4th race. One of my 'observations' on the Bosham event was that the 'down time' - allowing the essential on shore interaction, may have been limited (though Sunday's weather surely didn't help).

After the Tideway, I'd not want to sail Gently for 4 races in a day! That's not to say that I couldn't, nor that Gently wouldn't perform superbly all day, but is this what the weekend is about? I'd suggest 3 races in a day maximum - and even that maay be one too many. As the racing is all on h'cap, you really need 45 mins - as a minimum, for the PYs to start making sense.

As a point of reference, 3 years ago I was PRO for the RS Vareo fleet, who for their Nationals had a 10 race programme (3,4,3). It didn't really work...so this summer, when I had the task again, I set 8 races (3,3,2) and it went much better.

less can sometimes be more...or should that be the other way around, more is less'!!

D
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Re: Nationals 2013

Post by Obscured by clouds » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:16 am

Hoping to be there this year, since my re-hab is going really well.
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PeterV
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Re: Nationals 2013

Post by PeterV » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:11 pm

I agree with David's comments and:
I've often felt that the Saturday at the Nationals is a 'wasted day'. I understand the need for classic boat posing but I'd like a little more structure to it, my preference would be for some form of competitive obstacle course so that the emphasis was different from the normal racing so, sail backwards through a gate each lap, collect floating object and deposit it in a different area of the lake, collect one of each different coloured streamers from different places (some of which could be ashore). Prizes for this individual event.
On the Sunday how about two or three 'series 'races and one where each boat has to be helmed by someone different (either the crew or the helm from another boat). Again prize for the individual event.
On Monday another series race (so 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 count), then a separately scored pursuit race.
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JB9
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Re: Nationals 2013

Post by JB9 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:16 pm

Its a knockout then! Not for me thanks.
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Re: Nationals 2013

Post by SoggyBadger » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:10 pm

I agree with David about four races in a day. It could be a bit too much for some especially if it's windy.
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Re: Nationals 2013

Post by Rupert » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:35 pm

We also need to fit an AGM in one evening - maybe before the pub on Sunday?

I'm not so sure that four races is a problem - we will mostly all be there Saturday, and again Monday - surely we can fit 4 hours of pre-start and racing into a 7 hour time period where we aren't trying to get boats off and back onto trailers etc. I'd rather have 4 shorter races, with more chances to make amends, than 3 longer ones. I know that there is a theory that handicaps have to have time to "work out" because the start is even for everyone, but in reality I cvan't say I've ever seen this affect the result of a 40 minute race. But, I can't say that it bothers me too much, if general feeling is against. Maybe we could do a cocktail hour instead at the end, before we go to the pub?! AGM combined with cocktails, anyone?

I think we do need "counting" races on both Sunday and Monday, and would rather see 2 more handicap races rather than 1 pursuit. I know that due to the weather getting a bit nasty there were no takers for the pursuit at BBSC in the afternoon, but at Whitefriars the year before there had been (this was just for cvrda), so don't rule out anything Monday PM just yet!

Like the idea of a picnic lunch on Monday. At roadford there used to be a cream tea at prizegiving, but if we do the prizes after lunch as per your plan, a picnic would keep everyone together, too.

Saturday might be a good day to do a "sail someone else's boat" race?

Keep the starts together (unless specific classes, maybe the SigneT?) request otherwise, so all can qualify for the main trophies as well as class ones. The Minisails will certainly want to start with everyone (or, in some cases, well behind!)

I never heard anything back from the Pacer chap, but they might also be interested?
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Nessa
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Re: Nationals 2013

Post by Nessa » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:47 pm

This is all sounding useful. Hopefully when we've gathered lots of thoughts the Committee can help me work out a schedule that should please most.

I had forgotten about the AGM :mrgreen:
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Re: Nationals 2013

Post by davidh » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:53 pm

Oh dear............. I wasn't going to comment again but...........................

In the end, the nationals can be whatever people want them to be; a parade of sail, concours, obstacle course. But if that is the case, then it might be better to 'split' the event so that the two activities - the fun side of things and the racing, get split, with each having it's 'own' alloted space and time.

I guess the answer will come in the name: is it the National Rally, with the Championships being a part of the overall event, or a National Rally AND a Championships. By all means put one day - maybe the Monday - aside and let those who want to (to coin the phrase already used 'It's a knockout') have the extra day spent in fun activities.

And as for the 'race count': For my sins I now spend far more time as PRO than I do actually sailing my own boats. Lots of short races is, to my 'educated' eye, a bit like sailing windward-leeward courses. Everyone says how great it is, except for the people that are sailing them. 2 good races, with a 3rd kept 'up the sleeve' if time allows looks a far better option than 4 'mikey mouse' heats!

Nessa - have seen your PM and will PM you back....with suggestions!

D
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Re: Nationals 2013

Post by Pat » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:30 pm

Life for the Race Officer and the results person (usually me) is simplified if there is only one start. From doing the multiple 3 minutes starts at Cheddar I know plenty of concentration is needed to ensure that each competitor gets the correct elapsed time whether they started at 0, 3 6 etc and the less scope for confusion the better. Just need a wide line.
Extracting the results for Vintage Merlins, fleets or anything is easy enough with Sailwave anyway.

As for programme Bough Beech had it about right with 4 on Sunday and 2 back-to-back before lunch on Monday. Like Peter I think Saturday should have something worth doing (as well as the AGM) and this could depend on the weather so that if it's blowing old boots again the demands on the boats aren't as high as if it's lighter when more interesting manoeuvres could be added.

Personally I like finishing with a pursuit or separate prize race on the Monday afternoon as we have time to sort the main results and prizes at lunchtime without trying to pack and go at the same time. It also gives those having to travel further the option of leaving earlier.
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roger
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Re: Nationals 2013

Post by roger » Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:22 pm

Previous nats have all had things to do on Staurday for those early arrivers. I liked the Roadford round the lake race going whichever way you wanted with a beach start and having to report to the RO who was sitting at the hut on land. We also had a race one year where we had clues attached to different marks around the lake. It allows those who are unable to get there early time to pitch camp and socialise. I think Keith has always run some sort of fun race on Saturday.
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Re: Nationals 2013

Post by Michael Brigg » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:47 am

roger wrote:Previous nats have all had things to do on Staurday for those early arrivers. I liked the Roadford round the lake race going whichever way you wanted with a beach start and having to report to the RO who was sitting at the hut on land. We also had a race one year where we had clues attached to different marks around the lake. It allows those who are unable to get there early time to pitch camp and socialise. I think Keith has always run some sort of fun race on Saturday.
In recent years it has been termed a National Rally and I was always under the impression that racing at CVRDA events, while competetive, was also inclusive. One of the core intents at the heart of CVRDA philosophy has been to allow boats that have been left behind, or abandoned by technological advance, to live again in a competitive Club racing environment. In Championship mode, the racing becomes the sole purpose of the event. Particularly where championships lead on to furthering status or standings.

By defenitiion (certainly from the RYA or other standings,) The main event of the CVRDA calendar cannot be regarded in most circles as a "Chamionship." The Handicapping system is out of step with national standards, and the rules on things such as the changeing around of crew are not applied. It is the Boat rather than the crew/helm or Owner that wins the event.

So lets not try to be a Championship in the "official" sense, although we are at liberty to choose a selection process that brings out "the Best" at....well, whatever it is that the CVRDA feels is its purpose. The Champion of the cause, of Classic Racing Dinghies, NOT Classic Dinghy Racing.

...but if there is a problem with "Fun race", then there is honour for all if we call it a "Challenge."

For me a Challenge would be to sail some other craft in vaguely competitive manner. Again, a core value that has lain at the heart of the CVRDA is the opportunity on occasion to sail other peoples boats, because you never had the chance to own one when you were young.

I have a "to do" list of boats I would like to have a "proper" go in. No just sit in but a good hard pressed sail. As time goes by I would hope to knock a few of those challenges off.

Happy hunting.
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Re: Nationals 2013

Post by Rupert » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:05 pm

The National Rally concept was at the heart of the original events at Roadford, and one which I am keen to try and keep and expand upon. To make it work, the Saturday has to be all about the boats. The BBSC event struggled a little on the Saturday because of the weather, but I'm not sure a practice race is the way to go anyway - it needs some lateral thinking. I ran a treasure hunt at Whitefriars (which was OK, but could have been better), and there, the sail past with Karen taking photos on the headland had more participants than the racing. I'm sure that Nessa and her team will be able (with our help and input) to come up with a great non-racing programme for Saturday which will surpass the racing for fun and enjoyment. I for one would see it as an opportunity to sail some of those boats I have loved sailing with over the years.
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Re: Nationals 2013

Post by scorpion_1925 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:23 pm

it sounds an interesting event, can i raise one point though, sailing backwards round a course or picking up objects that kind of thing is great fun and can be challenging even in a two man boat let alone a single handed boat, my concern is those that sail boats such as a classic international moth the tasks would be seemingly impossible.
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Re: Nationals 2013

Post by roger » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:48 pm

scorpion_1925 wrote:it sounds an interesting event, can i raise one point though, sailing backwards round a course or picking up objects that kind of thing is great fun and can be challenging even in a two man boat let alone a single handed boat, my concern is those that sail boats such as a classic international moth the tasks would be seemingly impossible.
Be fun for us lesser mortals to watch though :evil: Shame Eds sold the IC really
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