AGM Proposal

and what is happening with the CVRDA today?
chris
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Re: AGM Proposal

Post by chris » Mon May 10, 2010 9:16 am

Jon, as Rupert says Ents and GP's are already accepted within CVRDA descriptions and I know we have had at least one streaker at an event as well as several Ents GPs etc. So I'm not clear where yoiu are coming from. A finn that is ove 25years old is in anyway, a Finn that is only a few years old I don't think should qualify even if it was something special because the finn association should find a place for it. But I do have reservations about letting any and every boat that is over a certain age in. If they are not competative in their modern fleet that is likely to be because they are in a bad state of repair so sort them out and they are on equal terms with a new boat (I'm thinking of the one designs here) and that's not the ethos ov the CVRDA then.

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Nessa
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Re: AGM Proposal

Post by Nessa » Mon May 10, 2010 9:31 am

The thing is, to all intents and purposes phantom K88 is lost. The class association attemtped to form a classic section and has failed, and in any case, their 'classics' all had three figure sail numbers compared to my paltry two. I invited these 'classics' to come and join the open at Hunts last month including the offer of a separate start and nobody came. I'm not a bad sailor and unfortunately at the moment I'm not far off phantom weight, but I know that I wouldn't be able to keep up with the plastic fantastics that are supposedly the same class as my boat if I raced against them at my club.

So what do I do? Should I scrap the possibly only existent original phantom? Shall I just carry on racing by myself in no man's land?

K88 is probably a rare boat now, but you guys won't let her in.
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Re: AGM Proposal

Post by davidh » Mon May 10, 2010 10:06 am

Chris,

I have to say that I have some sympathy for Nessa's 'cri du coeur'- if ever there is a Catch 22 keeping her in a racing limbo then this is it.

Again, I am not saying what is right or what is wrong and I'll steer even further away from making suggestions as to any possible solutions. But picking up on what you've just said (about boats being uncompetitive within their own fleets) surely the converse is worthy of discussion: how a boat that is fully competitive with it's "own" and has an active caring Class Association is fully supported within the ranks of the CVRDA.

I say again - I'm not saying that this is good or bad - but even with my jaundiced view of the world, I can see why Nessa feels the cold touch of exclusion!

D
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Re: AGM Proposal

Post by Rupert » Mon May 10, 2010 10:20 am

If we (and I think it is well within cvrda remit) are willing to take boats case by case, then Phantom 88 has had her case argued well by Nessa, and if it came to a vote, she would get mine. This isn't the same as saying "all Phantoms built before 1985 are in". The same case can be made for very early examples of Streakers (designed 1975), I'm sure, without the floodgates opening.

Having just said that about floodgates, it made me realize that there is no danger of floodgates opening anywhere. If a boat is competitive within its class (Fireflies are a good example, and one I think that DH was referring to) we get very few coming to cvrda meetings. Boats that aren't (Finns?) we get loads. 1 or 2 early Phantoms are not going to kill the ethos of the cvrda.
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Re: AGM Proposal

Post by chris » Mon May 10, 2010 11:18 am

yes, exactly Rupert. I totally agree. That sums it all up very well. The result of last year's changes to our wings was to give some flexibility that will enable a boat such as Nessa's early Phantom to join in. I don't think anyone would suggest it does not fit our 'ethos' so there is no problem. David has a valid point too that there might be boats old enough and eligble that actually don't fit the ethos in some ways. But to allow every boat older than 25years would, in many cases not fit the ethos. My point is really that our 'rules' do not need changing again because they have the right amount of disretionary flexibilty as they are. Most of this discusion took place before and a decision was voted on at the Agm. If we open it completely every event will just be like another day at Shearwater!

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Re: AGM Proposal

Post by davidh » Mon May 10, 2010 4:54 pm

Rupert,

At the time I wasn't thinking Firefly but Hornet- - but to be honest, I don't think it matters what class you choose as the example. Chris has pretty much said it more simply and betterer than me so I will leave his words on this as to me - the 'definitive' answer!!!

D
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Re: AGM Proposal

Post by Michael Brigg » Mon May 10, 2010 5:51 pm

Nessa wrote: ...K88 is probably a rare boat now, but you guys won't let her in.
I'm sure you are aware Nessa, this is simply a ploy to persuade you to get Aggamemnon into your garage!!! :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: AGM Proposal

Post by alan williams » Mon May 10, 2010 5:53 pm

With Chris on this one.
Dave we have had the thing out about Strangler and the Hornet before. Boat is totally compliant with CVRDA rules. Stangler is just a Bloody Good Sailor Ex Multiple Hornet National, European Champ and has won the FD champs several times as well, he gave the CVRDA it's final acceptance to the modern sailing world? If he had raced his FD there would be something to moan about as it's a recent Mader. Strang did not defend his CVRDA Championship. I feel because he felt he was being got at by statements like yours and the chinese whispers at the time. None of these arguments are moving on the CVRDA just dividing it. Read the Constitution digest and move on.
Sorry to have a go but lets clear this matter up and remember that the CVRDA is not the Panacea for bad class Associations with crap rules join them and change them. Other groups of people are setting up their own series within the CVRDA. I would not have a problem with old Phatoms racing in a seperate series or other classes which have been outdated. But not just old modern garden shed boats which bring nothing but gear failures. Within the CVRDA umbrella but not to count for the CVRDA series. The Finns have to conform with the age rules of the CVRDA to enter their own series which also qualifies them for the CVRDA series as we set the classic rules up to be that way. There is no way that I want to race against an old Laser in an offical CVRDA series. Let them set up a crap boats series for them and others of their age which still have Class Associations, Key words in Lost Clases eligibility. That's my rant of the day off to have yet another Coffee.
Cheers Al
Last edited by alan williams on Mon May 10, 2010 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nessa
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Re: AGM Proposal

Post by Nessa » Mon May 10, 2010 5:56 pm

strangely, though I can make a case for my phantom, I can't for the kestrel I currently own, even though it probably dates from the 60s, so I'm not sure age should be a criteria?

The only logic I can place behind this muddled thinking is that the kestrel closely resembles plastic tat, and would look nasty alongside some of the classier clasics, whereas the phantom wouldn't. I have yet to work on the kestrel mind you, so its aesthetics may improve. Also, however, I suspect that having tarted it up a bit, I would probably be brazen/daft enough to take it to a kestrel meet.

Now look, I've agreed with everyone! :roll: :D
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Re: AGM Proposal

Post by davidh » Mon May 10, 2010 7:51 pm

Alan,

Once again, by wading in with a 'rant' - where none was needed, you have made the case for the naysayers far better than I could ever have done

I was not thinking of Strangler, a sailor that I know well and have a huge respect for. What I was thinking about was something much closer to your own heart.

Recently, I've been having some fairly lengthy and in depth discussions with Dave C and Jon711 about what to sail next, for the reasons I set out earlier. And yes.... a Hornet did indeed cross my mind. But wait one - this is not just any Hornet, but the one and only 'Revolution' - in a shed not a million miles down the road from where I'm sat.

But on to the point that I was making constructively in the dialogue with Chris and Rupert. If one could get hold of Revo and do it up as per a 'state of the art' boat then I have no doubt that this could be a serious contender for the Hornet Nationals. It would also be a hard to beat package within CVRDA racing.

100% CVRDA legal, a total destroyer of the Handicap system but is this really where the CVRDA ethos lies? A boat that could be as successful in racing with it's own as it is within the CVRDA. A boat with an active class association?

It is not that I think doing this is wrong, a position that I stated quite clearly more than once. But taken in the context with which the comment was made (where nessa's K88 was not being welcomed) it does rather highlight the danger of trying to take too broad a brush to what is in and what is out.

So both Chris and Rupert - who talk of the need for looking at things on a per occasion basis -are very close to what I was trying to say (whilst drooling at the thought of turning up with Revo)
D
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Re: AGM Proposal

Post by JimC » Mon May 10, 2010 8:13 pm

Trouble is if not age then what...

I'd be willing to bet that in anything other than big seas if you were to do a thorough overhaul on your Phantom K88, including new decks, regluing of beams and the like, and then install a brand new rig foils and gear and put her in the hands of one of the class hotshots she'll would be pretty damn competitive. The boat speed differences get wildly exaggerated... Alternatively take the rig sails and gear off your boat as is, and stuff them on a brand new plastic fantastic and have a back of the fleet helm sail that, and surely we all know it will come nowhere...

Very few class associations abandon old boats: they're almost all desperate for membership and will happily put in old boat events handicaps, all the rest of it in order to try and get folks to turn up. IME its really is the reverse - old boat owners abandon class associations... When I was running the Cherub Class Association we tried everything we could think of to get older boats to turn up to the Nationals, and had very little luck...

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Re: AGM Proposal

Post by Rupert » Mon May 10, 2010 8:33 pm

Nessa, luckily for me, as I have turned up to cvrda meetings in all sorts of old tat over the years, the cvrda is not proud about what you sail in - so long as it was designed before 65 and is old enough. The very early GRP boats like the Kestrel, Minisail and others are part of a fascinating history in their own right - infact, they could be said to be the boats that started the end of the plywood revolution. Bring the Kestrel on!

David - Hornets, Fireflies - both are obviously good boats where hulls stand the test of time. As for the First Revo design, it would be more than welcome at events - a true piece of dinghy history. We would have to work out a handicap that made sense in comparing its speed to late 60's Hornets, which is roughly where the "old" handicap figure is based. Once this is achieved to everybody's (including your) satisfaction, then you will need to sail your socks off to win, just as anybody else will - as Strangler did. I think I was 2nd at that Nationals, and a distant 2nd at that, against an excellent sailing team and a well sorted boat. Given a different set of conditions (inland, lighter breeze) I'd like to think I could make a better showing, but helming ability will out!

Alan - I didn't think that was too much of a rant. If we did go down the moderner road, I agree totally it would have to be in parallel. And I suppose it is just possible that we could help some of the smaller CAs become better at running events if they wanted to join in...
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Re: AGM Proposal

Post by Ancient Geek » Mon May 10, 2010 8:41 pm

I think Michael is right, though if designed before 1965 is Agamemnon eligible?
However if not she gets my vote as an exception!!
Simples.

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Re: AGM Proposal

Post by alan williams » Mon May 10, 2010 8:47 pm

Hi David
You mention a boat at Netley that could only be stranglers and then deny it? As for the rant comment I do n't rant but rage as you should know(ment as a joke). Several Horneteers including me have been after Revo, we all know where she is. John Bines has tried to buy her with a very good offer, he told me at Brightlingsea (three years ago), that Barries parents said that they would never sell her. Have things changed? Best of luck trying to get hold of her, it's sad to know that a good boat nay a great boats is just sitting in a shed. You could also try to get hold of Drunken Duncan and find out if he still has Super Zonker (Revo's sister ship),and see if she is for sale.
I still stand by my previous comments in that a mutts a mutt. There is some flexibility in the CVRDA but why should we throw the gates open to any old thing, good grief you 'll want ISlow's and Laser 5 tonners next!!!!!!!! runs screaming to the straight jacket and padded cell.
Cheers Al
A.G Agamemnon is totally legal for CVRDA Int 14 class founded well before 1965 and boats about 40yrs old.

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Re: AGM Proposal

Post by davidh » Mon May 10, 2010 9:40 pm

alan,

the day when you and I cannot tell each other that we're having a rant will be a sad day indeed.... had I been P*ssed off, then rather than make a comment about a 'rant' I'd have been far more direct - as you would have been with me.

No, the comment about the one and only Revo is that it is such a great example. I do not think anyone would argue that the boat is a classic in every sense of the word. Yet, as Jim C highlighted, put a decent rig on it and you'd have a boat that could rock with the best of them. But you then have a boat that crosses all the boundaries between classic and modern.....

Incidentally Jim, whilst in many ways I think you're on to something when you talk about upgraded boats and their capabilities, I think the Phantom is a poor example to use. Two summers ago I had a woodie Phantom - a John Claridge boat at that - on this I stepped a superspar carbon rig and a Mylar P&B sail. The boat was quick - in some conditions more than quick, upwind. But off wind it was another matter all together, a situation that just got worse as the breeze kicked in. There was just nothing I could do, the new boats were just quicker (despite me having a rig that was at very least comparable, in some ways better). Swap boats and I was 'out of sight' - so the skill factor can be ignored.

Think the Phantom unique? Far from it... think Contenders after K388 Walkabout and 505s pre and post 84XX. At 505 Nationals, they now have a prize for the first pre 8400 boat, as despite the boat being a 'strict one design' recent changes to hull shape have rendered the older boats more or less obsolete. In some ways, the so called one designs have a worse record on ignoring the needs of older boats than the development classes...... a sobering thought!

D
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