AGM Proposal (Part 2)

and what is happening with the CVRDA today?
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jpa_wfsc
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AGM Proposal (Part 2)

Post by jpa_wfsc » Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:49 pm

There was a lot of interesting discussion there, and I was thinking about adding a h'penny worth - but the thread is locked now so I can't??

Well - obviously I can!

Which is only to say - having read all written therein - that I'd be voting for no change. We have a good range of boats turning up at events and, as far as I can tell, no one is calling to say "can I sail my L5K this weekend". Seems clear enough to me - and a delight for me too - that I can race my lost, and classic boats alongside famously significant boats like the sandtex scow, superdidlly, Iska and many many others.

Code: Select all

cvrda could surely also organise a 'significant steps' regatta - the Mirror, laser, laser 5K and many other recent but developmentally significant boats could be got together for an exhibition regatta. This could be a good result of DH's latest top ten iconic boats - would Y&Y sponsor that, Dave?
At my club every weekend I can race in and against old boats designed after 65 and built before 85 (or whatever dates would be set) and quite probably - many clubs can offer the same. So I don't think we need a specific setup for them.

There are some anomalies - e.g. flat deck or even, early wood double floored phantoms - which in their time were both significant developments, but are just the wring side of some dates that we set up. But do we not have a clause allowing in effect an appeals process for specific boats?

Anyway - no doubt we can all have a sensible chat around the BBQ at Clewedog, and continue that discussion here up to the date of the meeting, and come to a sensible decision. Its a great strength of the cvrda that it is able to do this and a good model for other organisations (not just sailing!).
j./

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!!!! Not CVRDA !!!!
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Re: AGM Proposal Locked

Post by admin » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:00 pm

The thread was locked as it was turning into yet another chat.

I've change the title of this thread and hopefully we can continue the discussion and focus in on AGM/CVRDA issues.

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Re: AGM Proposal (Part 2)

Post by davidh » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:48 pm

I will be very brief on this one as the thread is really about agm proposals.

But to answer your point JPA, I would hazard the guess that there is not enough in the proposal for the 'significant milestones' regatta, as the discussion about what would be in and what not in would make the discussions on here seem mild! The trick in the game is not just to know that something was 'significant' but more importantly, why was this was so.

Regarding the Iconic dinghy series (and thank you for the plug) if you wait just a month you'll find that you get a much better idea on how the selection process works. As with the the Top Ten UK dinghy designs, the whole thing revolves around an intellectual exercise that keeps asking not only the question of 'who' but 'why'. As was in DSM, Number 10 will be Int 14 K583 Windsprite, if you want to know not only Number 9 but also places 8 through to 1, then you'll have to wait for the mag to drop through your letter box. Think you'll enjoy it though.

And now....back to the AGM proposals, sorry for the quick thread hyjack!

D
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Re: AGM Proposal (Part 2)

Post by Mr. Ben » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:23 am

To respond to the original proposal...

I enjoy the CVRDA because it is so inclusive.

My alter ego hillclimbs and sprints an old Sunbeam Tiger. Sometines I get put into the over 3 litre class which means I end up racing against Subaru's and other modern plastic monsters. I much prefer it when I compete in a pre-1970 class on handicap. Yes handicaps are arbitrary but I'm there for the craic not the honours and most importantly, the people in the paddock with the old, lovingly maintained classics, who count originality over speed, are MY KIND OF PEOPLE.

For the same reasons I prefer to sail my Albacore with the CVRDA than in the Albacore Association. Don't get me wrong, the Albacore folks are a lovely bunch of people too but all classes are usually dominated by those with the depth of pocket to get all the best kit and that's an arms race I can't sustain. So class racing usually shakes out in to an order based on quality of kit and sailing ability and often it becomes more of a procession than a race.

To draw another classic motor racing analogy, the best racing you'll ever see is watching an american Ford Galaxy (a massive 7 litre monster) racing a Mini in pre-65 saloon car racing. Every straight the Galaxy powers past the Mini and at every corner the Mini undertakes the Galaxy.

Similarly, and regardless of my boats competitiveness and my own sailing (or lack of) ability, the mix of boats at the CVRDA, wherein some are better upwind, some better down etc. means I always get fun racing and I dont care if it's at the front of the fleet or the back! But it's fun vying for place on the water - how the handicaps shake the order out matters less to me.

So to get to the point - the CVRDA to me is defined by the people not the boats. It nevers seems too serious and the welcome is always warm and friendly (which incidentally also makes it a lot less intimidating to novices like myself). Would that change if the modern classics were let in? I hope not. Because the kind of people that would rather sail handicap than class are usually doing so for similar reasons - they have neither the inclination or the money to sustain the arms race in their own fleet. Usually they'll be looking for the opportunity to visit some different venues, have some fun racing, have a good day out with like-minded people and show off their old racing dinghy. Any pot-hunting bandits that creep in would quickly get fed up with the individual handicap system.

I can't make the AGM so hope no-one minds that I use this opportunity to have my slightly long-winded say. I 'm not sure if my views are in line with the aims of the CVRDA but anything that might help put more boats on the water sailed by the nicest sort of people at next year's Thames Sailing Club Regatta has my vote!
Mr. Ben
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Re: AGM Proposal (Part 2)

Post by Michael Brigg » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:12 am

Mr. Ben wrote:To respond to the original proposal...

I enjoy the CVRDA because it is so inclusive.

... the people in the paddock with the old, lovingly maintained classics, who count originality over speed, are MY KIND OF PEOPLE.

... but all classes are usually dominated by those with the depth of pocket to get all the best kit and that's an arms race I can't sustain. So class racing usually shakes out in to an order based on quality of kit and sailing ability and often it becomes more of a procession than a race.

To draw another classic motor racing analogy, the best racing you'll ever see is watching an american Ford Galaxy (a massive 7 litre monster) racing a Mini in pre-65 saloon car racing. Every straight the Galaxy powers past the Mini and at every corner the Mini undertakes the Galaxy.

Similarly, and regardless of my boats competitiveness and my own sailing (or lack of) ability, the mix of boats at the CVRDA, wherein some are better upwind, some better down etc. means I always get fun racing and I dont care if it's at the front of the fleet or the back! But it's fun vying for place on the water - how the handicaps shake the order out matters less to me.

So to get to the point - the CVRDA to me is defined by the people not the boats. It nevers seems too serious and the welcome is always warm and friendly (which incidentally also makes it a lot less intimidating to novices like myself). Would that change if the modern classics were let in? I hope not. Because the kind of people that would rather sail handicap than class are usually doing so for similar reasons - they have neither the inclination or the money to sustain the arms race in their own fleet. Usually they'll be looking for the opportunity to visit some different venues, have some fun racing, have a good day out with like-minded people and show off their old racing dinghy. Any pot-hunting bandits that creep in would quickly get fed up with the individual handicap system.
While I am pretty much in wholehearted agreement with you Mr Ben, I feel we should be careful about decrying the posession of a long pocket as implying a lesser enthusiasm for the whole classic scene.

The important thing is that if someone is lucky enough to have spare cash to invest in a classic boat and enjoys sailing that boat as it is, for the joy of competing with like minded sailors, it is to the benefit of us all, and it matters not that they employed another professional to achieve their goal. The nuturing of professional skills is a vital role of any society dedicated to the classic scene especially if these boats are to survive beyond the short term of their current owners tenure, and these skills will largely be kept alive by people who can employ those skills.

I can "earn" more hours of maintenance on my boat by doing a few locums, than I could ever afford to spend doing all my own maintenance, and the job will be done better , and quicker, allowing me to enjoy sailing I hope with my mates in the CVRDA. That being said I shall be far more proud of the bits I did myself, and in this the assotiation has a crucial role in encouraging those timid woodworkers amongst us to give it a try. :| :? :) :D

I spent a good deal more than the value of my firefly getting her back to racing trim and first class condition. I am unashamed of the fact (except perhaps to SWMBO :evil: ) and I managed an impressive 52nd( :oops: ) place in last years Firefly nationals. I am niether an arms racer nor a "pintle" in the fleet, but I do love sailing my boat. Arms racing is not neccesarily about spending money, it is about Corinthian ideals being squashed by the need to win.

Compare the path of the Uraguayan Football team into the semi final with the enthralling race between the British Dwarf, against the tall (South African?) paraplegic in the last paralympic long distance freestyle race in the Peking Paralympics. Like the Mini vs the Galaxy. What a race, turns vs straights, and the Brit got it by a fingernail :) I will remember that Swim race long after the Uraguayans have gone home.

I'm not sure if I can get to Clywedog, but I will look forward to seeing who has the Mini and who has the Galaxy. A little like Ed's Jolly boat and the Wagtail or whatever the (Still unidentified) boat was on the old Forum home page.
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Re: AGM Proposal (Part 2)

Post by Mr. Ben » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:31 am

I love the fact that there are classic enthusiasts are prepared to lavish time and money on older boats rather than join in the arms race and I also recognise, as I'm constantly shown by at least one member of my own club who sails an absolute dog of a Merlin, that the ability to sail well and set up a boat properly counts for a lot more than the best and latest equipment.

But Michael's post reminds me of another point. The majority of new sailors at my club spend less than £1000 on their first boat. Many of these to date have been CVRDA eligible boats. But increasingly these are older plastics potentially eligible under the new category.

After a while sailing with these first boats these new sailors tend to either A) give up or B) trade up to more modern equivalents. Due in no small part to exposure to beautiful older wooden boats at the CVRDA/TSC Vintage Regatta, some of these new members at my club are opting to go 'classic' rather than more modern.

It seems to me that the core of the CVRDA has been traditionally based around members who sailed or admired certain boats in their youth and are rediscovering and preserving those boats now.

But may I suggest that the march of time will inevitably determine that the future lies with A) members whose earliest recollection is of plastic boats and B) those who are new to sailing and have bought their first sub-£1000 old boat (like myself!). Encourage these people to go sailing as part of the larger classic fleet, and when they find themselves sailing alongside beautifully restored wooden boats, perhaps instead of 'trading up' to a more modern equivalent, they will, as is happening at my club, be inspired instead to 'trade up' to a wooden classic.
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Re: AGM Proposal (Part 2)

Post by JimC » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:48 pm

And of course should someone with exceptionally long pockets in the London/Surrey area wish to get into classic dinghies all they need to do is to contact Ben and Thames SC because there are usually laid up Raters which could be reactivated at a not-very-minor outlay [grin]

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Re: AGM Proposal (Part 2)

Post by Michael Brigg » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:19 pm

There is also the option of course to do both. Trade up to a plastic fantastic, and also to keep a classic.

I am rambling a bit here but...

The "older generation" you refer to have a need often for a more sedate, or better behaved family friendly boat, that their WAGS or even children will sail in without being put off.

There are many of this kind of boat within the CVRDA remit and I believe a more vigourous promotion of ths type of classic is at least one way to improve the longevity and more importantly variety of the membership.

Tideways and similar boats are an obvious example for family races,and I dont know quite how to bring about the kind of change that is needed, but I believe the future lies in bringing about a genuine club feel at events by which I mean some way of extending the age range of the fleet. There are notable exceptions of course, but I would be interested in some discussion (and this might perhaps be best moved into another thread,) about how we might introduce classic sailing of the type of boats we all sail to a younger membership.

Is there a place in the assotiation for a junior, or even student section? Penniless students are just the kind of people who might enjoy resurrecting boats off ebay. I wish it had been around when I was young! :cry:
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Re: AGM Proposal (Part 2)

Post by jpa_wfsc » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:43 am

In the course of freelance instructing over the last few years, I have met several young instructors who are doing just that... They sail plastic boats professionally (whatever the training centre has) but their own boats are an old merlin, a heron, ancient europe, a scorpion to recall but three, and so on. I suppose its what I do myself - I love sailing 29er, L2K, and so on, but would not own one.

So yes I think it would be a good way to extend the cvrda - targeting those who might by either of the sub £500 OK's on ebay right now for example - if they knew that they would be able to get competitive racing in them.
j./

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Re: AGM Proposal (Part 2)

Post by Ed » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:50 am

But does this imply any 'change' in what we already do?

I think Mr Ben's idea of the CVRDA ethos is right on the button. I would totally agree with everything said, but surely the implied AGM proposal would have to be to just leave it the way it is.

We have certainly had many 'student' members and have had a 'student' on the committee tasked with trying to work out how to extend our 'young' membership. We certainly considered a 'student' membership, but at the time we were not really taking a 'membership fee' but just a voluntary 'donation', so we were unsure of what we could offer.

We did consider making a 'cadet' section for the forum, but although we wanted to encourage cadet-sailing, were not sure that a cadet-forum would be so appropriate.

Mr Ben, you are absolutely right about how classic and old boats are so often picked by people starting out in their sailing career and often by people not quite so interested in racing. This is why we have always prided ourselves in trying to make our racing easy to understand and friendly to join and why we try to encourage all classic boat sailors to come and race with us, however slight their experience or 'non-racer' their attitude.

The CVRDA is as ever a wide church and as you have seen our racing helms fall about 50/50 into those with years of experience who most probably raced the boats when new and those who have taken up sailing (or racing) because of their love of classic dinghies and are relativey new to racing.


Money does of course come into this. If you bought the boat for under £500 in the first place then you most probably are sailing to a budget and the CVRDA does tend to have many of these sailors, so much of our discussion does revolve around how best to do it yourself....and cheaply.

But of course for others, it is a more effective use of time to work and pay someone else to do the boat up. I don't think that is an issue. That is their choice.

The only thing that does worry me is that the CVRDA (especially the forum) was built on the principle of using our community experiences to enable single members to undertake boat-work which they would otherwise be unable to do. I do get cross when sometimes we get a thread where someone says: "Oh you really need a 'professional' for this - you will never be able to do it yourself". These do come up under a number of 'guises' but we should all remember this is about trying to 'encourage' people to do it themselves....not to say "Oh, you would never be able to do that...."

Anyway, must go.....OOD today

cheers

eib







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Re: AGM Proposal (Part 2)

Post by Obscured by clouds » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:31 pm

best racing I ever had was in Seabird half raters at Abersoch. Slow, heavy, old fashioned [1898] but we were all in the same bit of water most of the time. Cut throat tactics, close quarters dueling around the marks, but oh so much fun.

too expensive now of course. :roll:
Tony



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[down to 3!]

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