The AGM

and what is happening with the CVRDA today?
davidh
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Re: The AGM

Post by davidh » Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:41 pm

My 2016 vote would be for Blithfield ..... then Tata SC (the old British Steel SC) - and then maybe somewhere further east?

I'd love to see Netley hosting something again for some funny tasting water (or.... Poole, for I know that they have expressed an interest) but these locations are probably unable to do the August B/H.

It may not be essential for this year (but there is no harm in starting the debate) but we also need to be alive to the changes that are taking place elsewhere - with boats starting to creep into the reckoning such as early Canterbury Tales and FRP boats.

AOB - a first look at doing something to encourage the bigger boats.

(but a very quick look at these last two... nothing to delay beer o'clock for too long)

D
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Re: The AGM

Post by chris » Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:52 pm

It won't be 'first' look David, it's been a topic for the last fourteen years!

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Re: The AGM

Post by roger » Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:05 pm

As the tradition is to discuss online before the AGM, which I am afraid I cant attend this year, I will start.
As the rolling date ,for old boat qualification, was stopped a few years ago at 1985 I believe there is no current risk of creep of C tales or FRP boats coming in unless of course the membership decide to move it on again by a year or so. There are good reasons to leave it as it is and similar arguments to allow it to move forward a year or two.
Would it be a hardship if more modern boats come along? The handicap system penalises optimised boats and the aim as I understand it is to bring modern or modernised boats back to the same level as more traditional ones. Take the Merlins for instance, if a modern Canterbury tales comes along the handicap should bring it back so that it gives Iska Gently or Secret Water an equal opportunity to win. It has been said many times before that those wishing to take home the prizes, such as they are, may well go away disapointed. It has happened before and will likely happen again.
Compared to the Bosham event then the handicaps as they stand at the moment will not encourage pot hunters.
I think if we go back to the founding principles, as I understand them the aim was to allow the older boats to compete on equal ish terms with the modern versions and the handicaps and handicap committee try to make that happen.
I am wandering around a bit here but I personally would want the cut off date to stay where it is but dont see any major issues arising from it being moved on a few years.
Bob Corefields KNOBS still thrives and becomes more respected as the years go on and I dont think we need to change much if anything.
Big boats and Salt water, yes please but you will find us owners of older more fragile boats will avoid the lumpy stuff. Shoestring never really got over the hammering she took at Netley and I know others feel the same. However when I finally stop filling my time with other persuits and get Demon out of the shed then I will definitely be up for some bigger salty stuff because it wont matter if I break her.

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Re: The AGM

Post by davidh » Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:42 pm

Roger

Oh dear yes, Netley was a bit of a work out wasn't it (for boats and crews alike).

I think you've pretty much put the matter of the cut off into a clear perspective. If any of the host clubs want to run anything different (such as Blithfield - they'd probably be more relaxed with regard to newer Merlins as they have a goodly fleet of them) then that shouldn't be an issue.

In defence of the strange tasting water.... I have to say that I was well impressed at the ability of the old moths to withstand the conditions. They'd never had that good a reputation for being robust, but they held together well. BUT - at the same time, Roadford was brisk enough to easily cause an old girl to split a seam or two. If it is breezy enough then pretty much any of our locations can be a test for the older boats.

Seriously though Roger, one of the bigger venues would, I'm sure, love to see you and the F'ball - plus a few of the 14s and other boats and I think encouraging them is a worthwhile consideration.

D
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Nessa
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Re: The AGM

Post by Nessa » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:10 am

I doubt I will make the AGM - kids camp starting on the Monday.

I would also vote for Blithfield for 2016. Much more accessible to our friends in the North and deserving of reward for recent effort.

I would like to see 'traditional' phantoms ie single floor, tin rig, allowed as an official Lost Class. These are lovely boats in danger of disappearing. I have no vested interest here as I no longer own one, but I do think they are worthy of preservation.

Hunts will be happy to host an open next year, ideally over two days, preferably combining two classes over separate days as we did with the Signets and Merlins this year.
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Re: The AGM

Post by chris » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:01 am

It's worth reading Neil's post in 'Cowes' topic on 'Events' part of the forum for those that may not be familiar with the origins of the CVRDA.

We have discussed before about the exact meaning of "...designed before 1965" . Does it mean the "class designed before..." or the "boat designed before..." This is relevant to restricted and development classes such as the merlins. The last conclusion I remember was to mean the CLASS. therefore, for example, all merlins that are old enough are in. Changing that meaning would alter the situation.

I have a concern that the more we get interested in more recent boats and classes etc. then the less interest there will be for the older boats especially the much older ones and this will move the CVRDA away from it's origins. There are more wooden ( and ribbed) boats than people prepared to take them on. Some of these are past champion boats and some of real interest that really need a good reason for someone to own them. Sailing them being the best reason to spend the time on them. I would not like to see what has happened in another class that at first promoted vintage racing well, then completely modernised boats came along and now it seems OK to build a brand new boat using a part of an old one and keep the original certificate and number and say it was built over 30 years ago. For me and many others this is just about the final nail in that coffin and I have stopped going to any of their events as there is no point sailing a bout 60 years older that's in original condition. I think it will also have the effect of condemning worthwhile old boats to the scrapheap. I do see a lot of sense in what the Finns and I think the Moths have done in their classic fleets by stipulating what rigs etc can and can't be used in their vintage events. This seems a very sensible approach and keeps the classic fleet on as level a playing field as possible.

Overall I think we have got it about right and shouldn't change things. Our racing is serious enough to be 'good racing' but having a bias by taking into account the age of the boat we encourage older boats to find feel they are at the heart of the CVRDA. If they don't then we have failed.

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Re: The AGM

Post by Obscured by clouds » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:30 am

Chris - absolutely spot on.

The Merlins [there, I said it] need to have a rethink or at least another division when it comes to 'Classics' since a whole raft of boats are effectively shut out from competitive events.
The MR Class Asociation needs to take a firmer hand with clubs putting on mixed events too. I was going to sail at Abersoch dinghy week, but the handicap I'd be sailing my 1969 Moon Rocket off would be the same as the two new carbonised wonder-merlins. I know I'd be at the back/middle of any fleet anyway, but at least I'd like to be in the same bit of water :) .

I for one am very thankfull that the CVRDA exists, even though I rarely make it to an event.
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Re: The AGM

Post by davidh » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:25 am

All,

I do not mean to be dismissive but the 'goings on' elsewhere ARE something that whilst not truly germane to this thread, are important to us at the CVRDA. As one who was personally closely involved, my viewpoint is that I don't think that the MR class as a whole have really thought this through - to use a maritime metaphor, they're 'holed below the waterline' but have yet to realise the fact. The end result is that the DeMay series, which was supposed to be there for the classic merlins, is now totally compromised. Good luck and well done to Nessa for offering to host the Merlins again but I'll not be reporting on it - if more clubs decline to host classic events for them, then it is just possible that the message will be understood. (here is a thought Nessa - invite the National 12s instead!!)

But I have already said that this is important to us at the CVRDA. If we accept a line of thinking that suggests that the merlins are best left to do their own thing, then that removes much of the potential for 'handicap banditry' There are so many boats out there that are really deserving of a future, that maybe a move away from just saving another Proctor IXb and instead saving something of real value will be a positive and significant result. ((FYI - any day now my next missive in Y&Y will be focused exactly on this subject))

Meanwhile, whilst Nessa is right to highlight the plight of the older Phantoms, there is a large and very active Class Association there. Is it not better for us to work with these classes so that they can support their own classic wings - in much the way that the Solos, Enterprises, GPs and others are now recognising the value of doing something for their 'old' boats - with the latest being the 505s who are now seriously talking about what can be done!

Where we really do have a chance to expand the role of the CVRDA is in the area of the 'Lost Classes'. Rupert has shown how the Mini-sail can be revived, this and many other 'lost' boats are actually very good and could be the next big thing in terms of the wider classic scene. I've spent most of this season focused on classic dinghies and little else and have made a few succinct observations. The classic scene is growing and spreading, but is still patchy and probably lacks critical mass. Bosham may be buoyant but Blithfield may have been a busted flush when it didn't get the support it deserves. Roadford on the other hand ticked just about every box - and is big enough to attract some bigger boats if that is what we want to do.

So to me, the future for the next 3-5 years is not in changing entry date criteria, but in trying to help those boats who need help the most - those who are indeed, lost!

Thanks for bearing with me on this - the next Y&Y article should be published in a day or three!

Dougal
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Re: The AGM

Post by Pat » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:02 pm

Yes the lost classes is the only date I'd look at possible changes for, but at present, it ain't broke so we shouldn't fix it.
Encouraging the class associations to support older boats is good but encouraging clubs to support them is even more important. So many newcomers are encouraged to get something flashy and plastic and buy their way into the fleet rather than sail a cheap old boat and enjoy it. And those who start with an oldie or lost class are quickly encouraged to upgrade to a modern mainstream class.

As for the Merlins I believe the best way to improve things is to change it from inside - put up a rule change for the AGM and make sure plenty of supporters are there to vote for it. Blithfield's attitude of "If it has a modern carbon rig it gets the modern handicap" is a good starting point.

And start a Bronze Rivet series for the genuine older vintage boats with eligibility based on originality!
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Re: The AGM

Post by davidh » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:19 pm

Pat,

I went down and attended the AGM. To me, the chances of getting rule change from the 'inside' are pretty much non-existent. There could well 'soon' be something organised (outside of the mainstream) for the 'Prime of Life' boats - good news for Goldie but for the rest of it.....I saw no evidence of any desire for change.

D
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Re: The AGM

Post by PeterV » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:53 pm

A class doesn't necessarily need to be lost for CVRDA support to be a good thing. The classic Finn growth, nurtured in the CVRDA is such that the BFA now want to encourage the classics to turn up at their events, so I'm all in favour of encouraging the wooden Phantoms as an exception so that we might see them grow to the point where their CA wants them back.
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Nessa
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Re: The AGM

Post by Nessa » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:49 pm

I do think we need to be aware that most sailors do not have the skill, time, patience to restore and maintain the oldest wooden boats which fall into the vintage and classic wing. I there fore think it is important to be as welcoming as possible to the 'Old' wooden boats, since so many people now are steering away from wooden boats completely, often when these are the craft that would suit them best, are most affordable and would give them plenty of low maintenance pleasure. There are so many myths around wooden boat maintenance which new varnsishes and paints can happily disple if only the word gets spread.

If we exclude too many older classes we limit ourselves to being populated by those with either the craftsmanship or the money to keep something classic on the water
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Re: The AGM

Post by neil » Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:08 pm

OK, a couple of observations.

the Lost classes is already flexible in terms of dates - there were no problems with my Spearhead a few years ago. Referring to the description.....
Sometimes it was because they just weren’t very good, sometimes because they were way ahead of their times or a bit weird or scary.

However many of them are very interesting boats and important parts and stages of the evolution of dinghy design.

The cvrda is delighted of course to help and race with all these boats designed before 1965….but we are also, always interested in any of these boats, whatever their age, even if they are only a few years old.
The issue about the early Phantoms is not really an issue as entry to an event is at the discretion of the organisers. I would however suggest that a specific range of boats is allowed. The danger could be that it could seen as a route for competitive boats (i.e. pre-epoxy) to take part. The parallel event approach such as used with the Finns and Moths might be worth a go, just to see what the appetite is amongst the woodie fleet.

There is a bit of discussion happening with the classic Finns about letting in "early" carbon rigs (http://classicfinn.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=556). Definition of what is allowed (or not) is key as the MR have shown its difficult to bolt the door afterwards.
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Re: The AGM

Post by davidh » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:09 am

Neil,

I think you are spot on with your comment re the Merlins....once something is allowed, the vested interests make it very hard to 'un-allow' afterwards!

Can we somehow balance out the wish (that I'm sure we all have) to be inclusive without at the same time opening the door up to those competitive boats. Both Solos and Phantoms (and British Moths) still have excellent examples in wood that are more than capable of being competitive amongst their own (at least at club level) - yet would qualify for CVRDA status.

The classic scene is changing - how much the CVRDA either leads or follows is a great topic for a post sailing evening and a pint or two.

But - I think that the answer of letting the host club 'tweak' the criteria (so you'll get later Merlins at Blithfield, possibly Phantoms at Hunts) is the best and least prescriptive solution!

D
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Re: The AGM

Post by alan watson » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:04 pm

RE Moths.....now here I hesitate because they can be occasionally a pesky trouble. BUT they nave given a huge amount to the sailing world because of their open unrestricted design philosophy ie anything goes and what sticks is ( like T foils, or lightweight carbon masts) good for any class.
So to my point... many very late International Moths (built as late as 2005) are now obsolete and are, for all practical purposes, an endangered sub species of the class eg Axeman 7's; Hungry Tigers ie ALL Lowriding International Moths.
So would it be possible or appropriate to bring up the question at the AGM of whether or not a special exemption from the general CVRDA eligibility rule might be made in this exceptional case ? .. Perhaps a development class rule allowing redundant designs CVRDA eligibility ?
The handicaps paint the picture at Gratham water the Hungry Tigers sailed off 975, flying moths at sub 600 or is it below 500 don't know.. but no comparison hence a whole raft of Lowriding Moths have, over night, become obsolete and the thought is that the CVRDA might be the organization to offer a home to this lost sup species of the class.

ALAN

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