Harrier No. 10 FOR SALE

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Silverwood
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Harrier No. 10 FOR SALE

Post by Silverwood » Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:28 am

This seems to be an original boat with original sail and equipment. My aim when buying it was to renovate it and use it for club racing, but after three outings I have come to the conclusion it is under canvassed for my (95 kg) weight and more suited for someone 10 - 14 stone. I am advertising it here first as I believe it may be the only Harrier left that has not been converted to a Harrier Plus - unless anyone knows otherwise!
Condition is "fair" but usable. I have replaced some ropes and cleats, but the systems could do with modern low friction pulleys given the rope angles used. Likewise, the transom flaps could do with replacement as they do not match! On the plus side, the "twin towers" on which the major controls are mounted leave the side decks completely clear and give a comfy sitting position along their full length.
The sail I would describe as soft, baggy and well used. Pictures are available. If CVRDA handicaps take account of sail condition this may not be a problem, but for club racing a new sail may be required. Handicap is stated as 118 in 1978 (Know your Dinghy) which is the same as an Enterprise and OK in that year. I believe they have both developed a bit in the past 30 years so The Harrier would be slightly slower against a modern well tuned OK or Enterprise. The original Handicap (1975?) is variously reported as 94 - 98. I was intending to get a sail made by a sailmakers apprentice or trainee as a project, maybe using cloth from a larger newish sail that was torn or blemished to keep the cost down.
Complete with launching trolley, thin tarp cover loose fitted, but no road trailer.

£250 o.n.o to get you on the water... a comfy lost class classic and a talking point for CVRDA Merlin owners!

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Nessa
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Re: Harrier No. 10 FOR SALE

Post by Nessa » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:27 am

pm sent to you Graham!
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roger
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Re: Harrier No. 10 FOR SALE

Post by roger » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:50 pm

Nessa wrote:pm sent to you Graham!
Not another boat Nessa what will Nikki say :?
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Nessa
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Re: Harrier No. 10 FOR SALE

Post by Nessa » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:52 pm

yeah but no but....
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JimC
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Re: Harrier No. 10 FOR SALE

Post by JimC » Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:35 pm

Silverwood wrote: but after three outings I have come to the conclusion it is under canvassed for my (95 kg) weight and more suited for someone 10 - 14 stone.
Try spreaders. You won't believe the difference they make... The standard rig is completely uncontrolled.

davidh
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Re: Harrier No. 10 FOR SALE

Post by davidh » Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:50 pm

Jim,

you'd also help a lot with just a short length of dynema and rigging up some lowers to help stop the bottom of the mast floating around!

But spreads (fixed) - as jim says - essential

D
David H

Silverwood
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Re: Harrier No. 10 FOR SALE

Post by Silverwood » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:08 pm

Extracts from Harrier rules....

8. The rig shall be single-masted una rig, with a Bermudan sail. The mast shall be
stepped on the foredeck with its forward face within 1200mm to 1300mm of the forward
face of the deck moulding. It shall be supported by a forestay and two shrouds.

18. The following are prohibited: Electronic aids; double luffed sails; inside ballast;
rotating masts; the use of any contrivance outboard or extending outboard, the purpose
of which is to support the helmsman outboard or partially outboard; any method of
altering the effective length of the standing rigging and any method of controlling the
bend of the mast and boom except a kicking strap. No fittings are allowed on the side
decks.


Not sure if either spreaders or lowers allowed... agreed if it is upgraded to a Harrier + then presumably Phantom rules for mast and sail apply, but at the moment it is (I believe) a true original.

Silverwood
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Re: Harrier No. 10 FOR SALE

Post by Silverwood » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:32 pm

Have checked original documents... shrouds are ok but probably not lowers (Rule 18). Rules expert required?

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jon711
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Re: Harrier No. 10 FOR SALE

Post by jon711 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:53 pm

Debatable, I would think that, under that rule that adjustable lowers would be illegal, but fixed lowers may (just) be legal. I see no problem with spreaders under the rule (I have been wrong before!).

But let's be fair, you would need to be a sicko, to protest a CVRDA boat for breaking class rules (Unless it's REALLY blatant), or even treading close to the edge. The main thing is that the boat is sailing...

Jon

Just as a thought, some classes have a rule that the mast has to fit through a hole of a set size, the N12's (I think, going from memory) say minus spreaders, so if there is a mast diameter restriction, and, it does not mention removing the spreaders, then spreaders could be illegal!

Silverwood
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Re: Harrier No. 10 FOR SALE

Post by Silverwood » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:08 am

9. The mast and boom shall be made of aluminium alloy and the section shall be that of
die number H43839.
10. The height of the centre of gravity of the mast shall be at least 40% of its total length up
the mast

Not sure if H43839 is still available but I would imagine any low tech alloy mast of approx the same diameter should be acceptable on a "renovation"

Original 1972 brochure has a picture of one sailing with shrouds, so I guess if its on the sales brochure they must be allowed!

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jon711
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Re: Harrier No. 10 FOR SALE

Post by jon711 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:17 am

Amy chance you could scan the original brochure and post it, would be great to see...


Just thinking that a boat like this would be great, for a lightweight like me, and, when DavidH can't make an event, it would still enable me to to compete in CVRDA events... Although, I am not sure I could resist the temptation to Harken it..... (Is there a handicap penalty for that??)

Jon

Silverwood
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Re: Harrier No. 10 FOR SALE

Post by Silverwood » Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:36 am

Hi Jon
Links to brochure, class rules, Y&Y review plus line drawings etc as follows:

http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/Harrier/harrier1.htm

If you have problems with the link I have pdfs I can e mail

davidh
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Re: Harrier No. 10 FOR SALE

Post by davidh » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:21 am

we really need to get Dave C to pronounce on this as he is, after all, the international measurer that we have easiest access too.

However, from my understanding of rules, the rule is pretty close to the Contender. So, you could not have adjustable lowers (nor struts) as they can can be used to 'control' the bend. The key word is control.....adjustable by the helm for the purpose of changing the parameters.

A fixed support is a support and as long as it stays fixed is no more than that.

But as Jon says, this is a moot point. I doubt that you could get that tube section any more so you'd be fudging the rules - but then, as there is no class association to agree or disagree you can be like Brother Rabelais with "do what thou whilt shall be the whole of the law".

D
David H

Silverwood
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Re: Harrier No. 10 FOR SALE

Post by Silverwood » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:31 am

My gut feeling is that ideally, as a lost class, the boat should remain as far as practical within the spirit of the original class rules. The boat was seen as a one design, not a development class. Therefore if photos of boats sailing say 1972 - 1978 show attributes such as spreaders, then it is reasonable to sail with them. Lowers just seem to be not in the ethos of the class, and a Phantom mainsail and mast seem definately out of class!

Rules state mast should be supported only by forestay and TWO shrouds, and prohibit mast bend control devices - presumably struts, rams, lowers etc. As the designer was something of a Merlin expert no doubt he was well aware of what was available in the early 70's!

davidh
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Re: Harrier No. 10 FOR SALE

Post by davidh » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:25 am

Silverwood,

a cut and paste from the rules...
"The rig shall be single-masted una rig, with a Bermudan sail. The mast shall be stepped on the foredeck with its forward face within 1200mm to 1300mm of the forward face of the deck moulding. It shall be supported by a forestay and two shrouds."

So, you HAVE to have a forestay and a pair of shrouds - but the rule does NOT say that this is all you can have.

But that said, you make a good point as to what was available at the time.

Back in the early 1970s, rig control - especially for single handers, was a real case of uncharted territory. Think of the boats around at the time.... the Finn and OK, both unstayed, the Solo (which still uses the low tension floppy unspreadered rig) the Moths, and the beachboats, the majority of which were stuff luffs.And that, as they say, was that!

I spent a long time researching the Harrier for the Lost Classes series ( this included a long conversation with Keith C, the boats designer) and would have thought that the lack of availability of the spar demanded by the rules is a real give away! You cannot have that, so that rule has to be by-passed, not to exploit the rules but because that section just does not exist any more.

I'd have thought that the first action of any Harrier owner would be to sort out the transom (else rudder and boat part company when sailed in breeze) and only then start thinking about the rig. Putting a Phantom main on the boat I agree is way outside of the original thinking behind the boat, but I cannot see that a couple of metres of Dynema to help support the mast at the gooseneck, plus a pair of fixed spreaders would really be so undesireable. The hulls are soft so will not withstand any great rig loadings anyway.

Of course, it WOULD be within the ethos to strip the boat down and when sorting the transom, really beef up the hull with localised reinforcement, then step a mast using much greater amounts of rig tension than the designer would ever have though (back then) possible or sustainable.

If someone wants to bend the ethos of both the class and the cvrda, it is not that hard to do. Surely it is far better that we accept a certain degree of modernisation - that is clearly visible to all - that end up with people hiding work beneath the gel-coat.

It is, I agree, not the most desireable of solutions but in the current climate, if it keeps a boat sailing that would otherwise be given the Viking funeral, then I think we should keep an open mind towards limited but sympathetic modernisation.

D
David H

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