A Smart built NSM on ebay

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Ed
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A Smart built NSM on ebay

Post by Ed » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:58 pm

I would want to have a good look at this before purchase....

just to make sure it had not gone too far.

but if not....it would make a really nice little classic for someone.

Would of been a very nice boat:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... SS:GB:3160


cheers

eib
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Re: A Smart built NSM on ebay

Post by PeterV » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:33 pm

It's near me. Should I?
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Re: A Smart built NSM on ebay

Post by Ed » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:09 pm

If it was near me, I would certainly go and have a look....

Whether it is worth it...or whether it is worth anything at all, depends of course on its condition.

If it was easily redeemable, then I would (if I was looking) be very tempted.....but something about some of the photos make me wonder if their might be more damage than is instantly easily visible.

But do go and look..... :-) and report back.

cheers

eib
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Re: A Smart built NSM on ebay

Post by davidh » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:22 am

Peter and Ed,

bearing in mind that this is an open forum I will be very careful with my choice of words BUT, if I were looking for a merlin Rocket project, I'd keep looking. If the number is 3136, then the boats isn't an NSM but a Hooligan. Okay yes, it is still a Phil Morrison design but the Hooligan was a development of the Infidel, a lightweights boat that didn't really enjoy much of a reputation - except for being slow in the lighter stuff. One could easily say that in design terms, this was the last lamp post in a cul de sac - the design philosophy changed markedly after this!

A Smokers, or better still (given where and how we sail) a Callaghan designed Hexagon would be a far better starting point, a better weight carrier and in the end, simply a better all round boat. In the book the Hooligan doesn't get 'slammed' for I'm not into that, but it doesn't get much of a gold star either!

D
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Re: A Smart built NSM on ebay

Post by Ed » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:28 am

If it is a Hooligan..... and I hadn't taken on the mighty task of getting up from my desk and walking the 6ft to pick up a MR yearbook to check...

Then I would agree with you.....that it wasn't the right boat for me.

Still.... a nice boat for the right person.

But this is all day-dreaming anyway. I am not in the market for a wide Merlin at the moment.

cheers

eib
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Re: A Smart built NSM on ebay

Post by PeterV » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:43 am

Thanks David, my comment wasn't really serious but I would have no illusions about the amount of work that could be required and to put that effort into a boat which isn't particularly worthy would be a shame.
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Re: A Smart built NSM on ebay

Post by davidh » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:05 pm

Ed,

didn't we used to have a couple of cvrda members who were regular attendees at events with a Holligan - nice boat with a white hull.
I remember watching them and thinking that they looked to be doing everything right but were not going very quickly. I remember thinking at the time that their efforts deserved more.



DI've long felt that more should be done to the classic MR py.... to encourage boats like the Hooligan, rather than attract yet another IXb
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Re: A Smart built NSM on ebay

Post by Ed » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:23 pm

I do remember a white Merlin.....yes..... but can't remember what the design was.

As for the handicaps.....well....best left for discussion over a few pints.

And as for the pros and cons of the merlin designs, I am happy to listen to you.

Personally.....and this is very VERY much my humble opinion and an immense generalisation......But I don't think it is easy to make any of the early wide merlins go as well as you feel that they should....By early I mean pretty much anything with the high foretank. As soon as you get to the low tanked NSMs it is a different story.

Whereas the later Proctor designs seem to be relatively easy to get the best out of, especially on the kind of waters that we tend to sail.

Rozzer 999 a MkIX was always easy to develop/modernise/sail/own, whereas MR2900 a Phantom Kipper was lots of work and never really performed as well as we felt that it should. The Kipper was faster for sure, but not faster enough to get back for any methodical PY changes made. But they were both worth it in the end I guess.

Certainly if I was looking for an early wide Merlin, I would be quite fussy about the design chosen and I suspect follow your advice very closely.

cheers

eib
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Re: A Smart built NSM on ebay

Post by davidh » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:03 pm

Ed,

Worry not, it was not a case of sounding off about the rights and wrongs of PYs but something more specific to the MR class.

When we had the meeting what, a full year ago now, it was one of the ideas that I thought worthwhile to put forward. As a basic concept, I had hoped that the 'idea' was one worthy of consideration at the very least.

So here goes: The MR Class already have a database showing boat number against 'design'. However, the classics are handicapped on a pretty crude 'thick cut' basis, whereby boats fall into a handicap band simply on the basis of age. But this takes no account of the capabilities of the design, a factor that has led to a great demand for some old boats whilst others get totally ignored and happily consigned to the bonfire.

Let's take as an example Pat and Sandy's Proctor IXd 'Half Cut' (Pat and Sandy - I hope you don't mind you using your good name like this); this is a boat that has real interest factor from not only the design point of view but is also a boat with a bit of history behind it. Yet if you look at boats that Half Cut is 'lumped in with', there are some far better designs, yet they are supposed to race on what is a level playing field. I would contend that even if you could you make the two boats identical in terms of sails, foils, state of tune, even relative skill levels of the crew, that there are 'better' boats than the IXd - a fact that the Merlin Rocket fleet quickly worked out too. But does this mean that the IXd is somehow unworthy of it's place in the classic scene. No no no.... I'd love to see more IXds (sadly there is only one other of that design), more Moon Rockets, Rage, Surf Scoter and the like. You'll not seem them though because...well, because the accepted view is that they won't win today where the action is - across a narrow band of locations.

So the idea was to use the database to allow for some more 'granularity' in Merlin PYs on the basis of design rather than merely age, a simple move but one that might just encourage more people to look outside of the obvious jack Holt/Proctor designs. This is surely a good way for the class to be more inclusive of it's older boats rather than less. Sadly, the meeting we attended had little interest in there being any discussion on the topic, which headed rapidly for the long grass.

I recently watched a 'significant' development in terms of MR design consigned to a Viking funeral for the simple reason that it is not a Martine, Passing Cloud, IX/IXb or XII, ready to be rigged with the latest in carbon and mylar rigs (and no, the PY system has yet to come to terms with this!). Little wonder that there is the start of more 'visible' dissatisfaction with the classic merlin scene once you move away from the Thames.

D
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Re: A Smart built NSM on ebay

Post by Rupert » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:35 pm

I suspect with boats of this age, most do-er uppers and sailors will be more concerned with how pretty a boat looks than top speed, but I agree it is good to have all the info to make the decision.
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Re: A Smart built NSM on ebay

Post by PeterV » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:18 pm

Agreed, if the fastest example was the only criteria my Finn would probably be on a bonfire and I'd be sailing a wooden Taylor.
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Re: A Smart built NSM on ebay

Post by Ed » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:03 pm

Well, it is all of those things....

But, although I might be wrong....but isn't that exactly what David is saying. That a handicap should be fair enough and granular enough to give good racing for each design (and every boat), rather than lump them together by year or number. Without this, the 'interesting boats' which moved designs forwards by just going too far...or down a cul de sac, become less interesting to those who want to race on a handicap they know is fair for that boat. The CVRDA was always about trying to give good racing to all these boats, but especially these boats.

To be honest I agree with this. Always have.....but that isn't the issue. The issue is how would you do this in a fair and sensible way. I don't think we can, we simply do not have the data, the manpower or the willingness to undertake this mammoth task. In the end, you would have to either produce a system for every design built...which is impossible without seeing or reviewing how any boat with that design has faired over the years; or we would need to create a boat register, that took into account the design, the condition, the subsiquent renovation and modernising of each boat. The second alternative would be easier, but still, when we have discussed it in the CVRDA, the opinion was that it would be too hard to do with any level of fairness, or more importantly it would be too easy for anyone who wanted to try and take advantage of the system.

Hence, we have had to introduce some generalisations.....and then leave any adjustments required to a 'handicap committee' to adjust as they see necessary. This is the way the CVRDA has done it for 15 years and I still think it has a great deal going for it.

OK, I would agree that for Merlin Class vintage racing.....(not that I am in any way graced with the rights for any opinion on this) I would agree that possibly the task of creating a 'vintage register' is only 'enormous' and 'practically impossible' rather than 'ginormous' and 'impossible'.

As I have said many times, I would like and support the idea of a register....just don't want to do it myself :-)

If I was on the Vintage Merlin committee, I would certainly wish to research it further.

But I also agree with Rupert and Peter. There is a danger that David misses the driving force behind boat choice for CVRDA owners. On the whole, we don't buy boats because we think they will win races. We buy them because they asked us to or because they were about to go on the tip, or we liked the shape of their buttocks, or the colour of their varnish. Generally we want to own the boats that we remember coveting as kids. We don't think in terms of 'what will win now' but more of 'I really thought this was the dux nuts' even if in reality we know it turned out not to be. So we will still keep buying those boats, knowing that even although the system we have 'tries its very best' to give us a good chance, it most probably still wont.

So....I agree.....but in the end, I don't think it really matters one way or the other.

later

eib



I
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Re: A Smart built NSM on ebay

Post by Ed » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:04 pm

oh, and for what it is worth.....

current price is £53 or so, from someone who wants to scrap the boat and keep the combi......

sigh...


eib
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MR 638 - Please come and take it away
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Re: A Smart built NSM on ebay

Post by dieharddinghysailor » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:24 am

Shame, it needs a lot of work; a few years ago I bought a damaged Fireball for 15 quid; it would have been repairable, but I didn't have a workshop at the time, so I stipped off all the fittings, sold the mast, sails, spinnaker pole, boom, rudder and centreboard on ebay for a sum total of around 800 quid...!! Doesn't make sense, and I still have some of the fittings that I use in my other boats......(I shipped boxes of stuff to the USA..!)

If I was in the UK now I would buy it (assuming I had a garage). I hate to see old boats die.........

Mike Scott

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Re: A Smart built NSM on ebay

Post by Ed » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:10 am

yes, it is always a temptation....

but still sad when they go that way. To be honest, I don't think it is happening as much as it used to.

Not sure it is a behavior the CVRDA should condone though....well unless the boat is really past it and of little interest anyway.

A Smart built Merlin somehow seems to me like a boat that should be saved though.....would seem a tragedy to cut it up.

eib

ps @dieharddinghysailor Whidbey Island.....lucky you, enjoyed a lovely week in a wood cabin there when I was a teenager. Pressing cider and cutting wood on the beach. In those days the beach was so deep in wood flotsam, whole logs 4 to 6ft deep, that there was a built pathway over the top. I wouldn't imagine it was still like that?? or is it?
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MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

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