Hi Dave
Sorry to hear of your injury. But if you had been sailing one of those built like battleship vessels eg a Finn it could not have happened. Seriously the quality of some of these new boats leaves a lot to be desired, a friend of mine brought a certain Two man wired boat from one of these big companies and found when he rigged it and put the rig tension on to check that all the set ups were right the shroud fittings pulled out and the mast fell down. The boat was returned and the deck removed to find out why. The result of the investigation revealed that every support pad for the fittings was in the wrong place and that on assembly the screws had just been driven into the fiberglass. He rejected the boat and demanded his money back (which he got), and brought a national class from a small builder who invited him to each stage of it's construction, another bonus was that the hand built boat was thousands cheaper than the plastic fantastic. Moral the little people have to put customer care first the big boys are just in it for the money.
Cheers Al
Another Finn
ive had a similar problem with the centre board on a RS vision the board and go a full 360 so it get folded away under the boat! no call me anything you like but last time i cheacked that is not in anyway helpful! even more so when the kites up in force 5
Pegasus 166(The Darkside) SOLD
Cherub 2646 Madge
Cherub 2646 Madge
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Alan Price
- Posts: 115
- Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:37 pm
I bought a new Supernova from Mark Giles four years ago and have been very impressed. What value for money.
Mark has now retired and Hartley Laminates of Kestrel and Osprey fame now build them and they are undistinguishable from Mark's boats. Older Giles boats and new Hartley boats are mixing it at the front of the fleets. Mark's after sales service was excellent and I've heard the same about Hartley's.
So it is possible to buy a modern design boat of good quality at a reasonable price(£3450 inc vat)
But I still love my OK.
Get well soon David. I'm sure it's going to be very frustrating.
Mark has now retired and Hartley Laminates of Kestrel and Osprey fame now build them and they are undistinguishable from Mark's boats. Older Giles boats and new Hartley boats are mixing it at the front of the fleets. Mark's after sales service was excellent and I've heard the same about Hartley's.
So it is possible to buy a modern design boat of good quality at a reasonable price(£3450 inc vat)
But I still love my OK.
Get well soon David. I'm sure it's going to be very frustrating.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by alan williams</i>
another bonus was that the hand built boat was thousands cheaper than the plastic fantastic. Moral the little people have to put customer care first the big boys are just in it for the money.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I think that's probably unfair. With the big manufacturer boats the money you pay is not only paying for the boat, but also for all the promotion, advertising budget all the rest of the things that tend to mean that the big manufacturer boats have bigger events with more competitors etc. Now you may not value that stuff - I don't, which is why I don't sail that sort of boat (and probably no-one else here either), but that fact remains that for a lot of folk that stuff is important to their choice of boat. They may not like to think they're paying for it, but of course they are, and you do get what you pay for, and equally you don't get what you havn't paid for...
another bonus was that the hand built boat was thousands cheaper than the plastic fantastic. Moral the little people have to put customer care first the big boys are just in it for the money.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I think that's probably unfair. With the big manufacturer boats the money you pay is not only paying for the boat, but also for all the promotion, advertising budget all the rest of the things that tend to mean that the big manufacturer boats have bigger events with more competitors etc. Now you may not value that stuff - I don't, which is why I don't sail that sort of boat (and probably no-one else here either), but that fact remains that for a lot of folk that stuff is important to their choice of boat. They may not like to think they're paying for it, but of course they are, and you do get what you pay for, and equally you don't get what you havn't paid for...
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alan williams
- Posts: 1650
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:44 pm
- Location: Devon
Hi Jim
But that still does not explain poor quility products at premium prices. Most of their events have big sponsors who have nothing to do with the manufactures. The reason they spend a fortune on promotion is to sell these fashion items, with models changing constantly. Almost as quickly as Peter Stringfield changes his women.
Cheers al
But that still does not explain poor quility products at premium prices. Most of their events have big sponsors who have nothing to do with the manufactures. The reason they spend a fortune on promotion is to sell these fashion items, with models changing constantly. Almost as quickly as Peter Stringfield changes his women.
Cheers al
So many forum strings all coming together in this one! Jim and Alan are in their own way both right. Yes, we've lost the personal touch of the 'local' class builder but there equally benefits to be had, not the least in economies of scale. I don't know what it would cost to put a brand new Hornet out onto the water, my guess is 'lots' and of greater importance is the vexed question of how long it would take. Set that against (for example) a new RS800 - where on can basically 'unwrap it and go!'.
The established UK classes have done a great job of fighting the competition from the 'new' boats, the Phantom and Solo have seen off the Laser EPS, the RS 300, the Vortex in the same way that the merlin saw off he MR-X. To me, this is just more evidence though of how sailing is changing - and how the pace of that change is increasing.
But hey ho - good news! I've heard back from the owner of the Unit thst we still have a deal (after my non show at the weekend)so as soon as I'm abck and fully mobile I'll redo the Isle of Wight trip and will become a classic boat owner. I hope that this won't take too long, Plan B is to start using the leg again today, while I may not be sprinting around at least I'm 'up and about'.
And for those of a technical leaning...my Blaze problems have created a bit of a stir. Another Blaze sailor has already taken his racks apart to find that all's not well. He's a structural engineer by trade and has access to gadgets like digital calipers. In short, he found a 9mm bolt head and an 8mm countersink - and on one racke the bolt head had already pulled through the load washer and was only held by the ally rack tube. As he said... he had 'nightmares' thinking about it! That said, Topper have been very good so far, contact was very fast and effective, followed up by a call from Rob White up at Brightlingsea (where the boats are built) so I have to keep fingers crossed right now!
D
The established UK classes have done a great job of fighting the competition from the 'new' boats, the Phantom and Solo have seen off the Laser EPS, the RS 300, the Vortex in the same way that the merlin saw off he MR-X. To me, this is just more evidence though of how sailing is changing - and how the pace of that change is increasing.
But hey ho - good news! I've heard back from the owner of the Unit thst we still have a deal (after my non show at the weekend)so as soon as I'm abck and fully mobile I'll redo the Isle of Wight trip and will become a classic boat owner. I hope that this won't take too long, Plan B is to start using the leg again today, while I may not be sprinting around at least I'm 'up and about'.
And for those of a technical leaning...my Blaze problems have created a bit of a stir. Another Blaze sailor has already taken his racks apart to find that all's not well. He's a structural engineer by trade and has access to gadgets like digital calipers. In short, he found a 9mm bolt head and an 8mm countersink - and on one racke the bolt head had already pulled through the load washer and was only held by the ally rack tube. As he said... he had 'nightmares' thinking about it! That said, Topper have been very good so far, contact was very fast and effective, followed up by a call from Rob White up at Brightlingsea (where the boats are built) so I have to keep fingers crossed right now!
D
David H
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alan williams
- Posts: 1650
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:44 pm
- Location: Devon
Hi David
I have already stated in another tread that the new Bob Hoare Horrible Hornet is £10000 which is a stupid price, equally a new Rs800 is that price. The problem for the Hornet Assoc. is to get a cheaper bulider,
Hartley's the builders of the Kestrel and now the Osprey are bulding super boats at thousands of pounds cheaper than the Hornet or the RS800. The Kestrel has to be the best buy on the market at £5000 complete ready to race including cover and combi trailer and the Osprey is also an amazing price.They now produce the Supernova at a price far cheaper(Alan Price has posted the price else where), than a Laser and a better boat in my option.
So good boats can be produced cheaper and are brought by people looking for quality not a life-style product were the parties are more important than the sailing. The standard of sailing in the middle order tailend of some of these manufactures classes is pathetic. As regards quility control it is well known that the weights of hulls vary considerably but because all "boats are equal" you cannot add correctors of remove weight from a heavy boat. Like wise there is a considerable difference in the quility of spars as regards bend characteristics. A friend of mine who used to own a RS800 found it impossible a couple of years ago to get insurance on the mast of his boat, they would insure the boat but not the mast as breakages were so frequent.
Cheers Al Finn 340 Shark 41 etc.
I have already stated in another tread that the new Bob Hoare Horrible Hornet is £10000 which is a stupid price, equally a new Rs800 is that price. The problem for the Hornet Assoc. is to get a cheaper bulider,
Hartley's the builders of the Kestrel and now the Osprey are bulding super boats at thousands of pounds cheaper than the Hornet or the RS800. The Kestrel has to be the best buy on the market at £5000 complete ready to race including cover and combi trailer and the Osprey is also an amazing price.They now produce the Supernova at a price far cheaper(Alan Price has posted the price else where), than a Laser and a better boat in my option.
So good boats can be produced cheaper and are brought by people looking for quality not a life-style product were the parties are more important than the sailing. The standard of sailing in the middle order tailend of some of these manufactures classes is pathetic. As regards quility control it is well known that the weights of hulls vary considerably but because all "boats are equal" you cannot add correctors of remove weight from a heavy boat. Like wise there is a considerable difference in the quility of spars as regards bend characteristics. A friend of mine who used to own a RS800 found it impossible a couple of years ago to get insurance on the mast of his boat, they would insure the boat but not the mast as breakages were so frequent.
Cheers Al Finn 340 Shark 41 etc.
When we were looking into the cheaper type builders for the Cherubs some years back it wasn't a viable alternative. The cost savings come primarily from different choices of materials and construction methods which whilst perfectly viable and valid for a Kestrel aren't an option with the much higher loads on a reasonably light performance boat like a Hornet.
One number on the promotions etc bit is that at the hight of the windsurfing boom something like 40% of the cost of a new sailboard was marketing and promotion. The actual hardware cost less than the selling of it. I don't believe RS, Topper et al have gonme that far, but the differences in expenditure on promotion etc are several orders of magnitude greater than the likes of Hartleys. The marketing and promotion is a big part of the "premium prices". You don't value that's that's fine, neither do I, but it doesn't mean the products are overpriced. An RS800 built to say the staandards of Bloodaxe Boats would cost svereal thousand poundsa more than an RS800 does now, and if you factored in all the rest of it you'd be looking at 20 grand plus a boat. An RS800 built and promoted the same way as a Kestrel would a) disintegrate and b) be about as popular as a Spearhead or all those other performance classes that were started without the marketing/promotion backup.
Another of course is that some of the very small companies are prepared to exist on starvation incomes because it enables them to do what they like doing.
One number on the promotions etc bit is that at the hight of the windsurfing boom something like 40% of the cost of a new sailboard was marketing and promotion. The actual hardware cost less than the selling of it. I don't believe RS, Topper et al have gonme that far, but the differences in expenditure on promotion etc are several orders of magnitude greater than the likes of Hartleys. The marketing and promotion is a big part of the "premium prices". You don't value that's that's fine, neither do I, but it doesn't mean the products are overpriced. An RS800 built to say the staandards of Bloodaxe Boats would cost svereal thousand poundsa more than an RS800 does now, and if you factored in all the rest of it you'd be looking at 20 grand plus a boat. An RS800 built and promoted the same way as a Kestrel would a) disintegrate and b) be about as popular as a Spearhead or all those other performance classes that were started without the marketing/promotion backup.
Another of course is that some of the very small companies are prepared to exist on starvation incomes because it enables them to do what they like doing.
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alan williams
- Posts: 1650
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:44 pm
- Location: Devon
Jim you are failing to see the point
I had one of the highest tech Hornet,s ever producted and complete it still only cost £4500 with myself decking it and screwing all the bits on. The Kestrel is built to high standards and I would feel far happier sailing a Kestral off shore in a sea than an RS800 as I feel it would not fall apart. Several years ago we held at Mayflower an Open for the RS800 Out side the Sound in a Force 4 with a 3ft chop. They ( the members from the class committe) demanded that the racing be held inside the Sound as the hulls could not take the pounding. That I feel say's alot for the people who sail the boat in their confidence of the product. Also the Hornet cannot be descrided as being light weight, weight is 125kg only just lighter than my Finn.
Mass production should result in lower prices not higher ones. Why do companies need to spend such alot of money to sell a product? Could it be that the product has to be hyped inorder to sell it. We all know that these boats had to have a special course adopted for them as on a convertional course against boats such as the 505 , FD, Osprey. Fireball and Hornet they get their arses kicked.
Well thats todays rant.
Cheers Al Finn 340 Shark 41 etc.
I had one of the highest tech Hornet,s ever producted and complete it still only cost £4500 with myself decking it and screwing all the bits on. The Kestrel is built to high standards and I would feel far happier sailing a Kestral off shore in a sea than an RS800 as I feel it would not fall apart. Several years ago we held at Mayflower an Open for the RS800 Out side the Sound in a Force 4 with a 3ft chop. They ( the members from the class committe) demanded that the racing be held inside the Sound as the hulls could not take the pounding. That I feel say's alot for the people who sail the boat in their confidence of the product. Also the Hornet cannot be descrided as being light weight, weight is 125kg only just lighter than my Finn.
Mass production should result in lower prices not higher ones. Why do companies need to spend such alot of money to sell a product? Could it be that the product has to be hyped inorder to sell it. We all know that these boats had to have a special course adopted for them as on a convertional course against boats such as the 505 , FD, Osprey. Fireball and Hornet they get their arses kicked.
Well thats todays rant.
Cheers Al Finn 340 Shark 41 etc.
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Alan Price
- Posts: 115
- Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:37 pm
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Alan Price
- Posts: 115
- Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:37 pm
I bet, Mark.
Since Andy Rushworth stopped building,new British built plastic OKs have not been on offer.
I think I'm correct in saying that the British Assoc. have bought the Rushworth moulds and Aardvaark have taken theirs of Nick Craig's New Zealand sourced boat.
Looking forward to seeing you and Karen at Frensham,Moths and all.
Since Andy Rushworth stopped building,new British built plastic OKs have not been on offer.
I think I'm correct in saying that the British Assoc. have bought the Rushworth moulds and Aardvaark have taken theirs of Nick Craig's New Zealand sourced boat.
Looking forward to seeing you and Karen at Frensham,Moths and all.