swordfish on ebay

chris · Post by **chris** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:10 pm

You mentioned musical instruments...something I know a little about...and I always have a real gripe agianst the crafts council because the do not understand the design involved in instruments. They only consider up-market-nick-nack 'crafts' to be worthy of their support. Instrument makers do not come under their remit because according to them we don't design what we make. In other words because one violin may look like the next they cannot appreciate that the design differences are musical not visual. To me there's design and there's decoration. So I think boats are abit the same. The best designs will look good too but the judgement of the visual aspect should be secondary to the success of the DESIGN.

I agree that much of the joy of 'classic' boats (or anything else) is what they look like. Probably with a touch of nostalgia too.

So if GPs are ruled out any suggestions for a safe classic to take the grandchildren out in?

Mary · Post by **Mary** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:19 pm

Yes that was a bit of a rant Ed, but I thoroughly agree that functional and practical objects can be designed well & should also be things of beauty.

Ianphot · Post by **Ianphot** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:24 am

Lovely to read your passion for beauty or design or hopefully both! I've been restoring an (ugly?) GP 14 series 1 as a first wooden boat project and it has taught me a great deal. Choosing the GP was fairly easy as there are lots of old ones about, a good class association and the cost of ownership is good. I do admire the concours finishes of the classic boats and have lots of pics on file of veneered beauties taken at shows and open days and maybe one day I'll own one of those. The reasons for the success of classes is complex and not easily understood. Why has the GP survived as an "ugly" boat rather than the Swordfish, which I agree looks rather lovely? (I thought the Albacore a lovely boat too - but I had never seen a Swordfish and the Alb is much easier on the eye than the Ents and Wayfarers popular at my club.) As well as being in the eye of the beholder, beauty is comparative. Why are there so many new Minis and so few new Beetles? the designer had the same thing in mind but one succeeded and the other didn't. I sail a Lightning 368 which I chose over a Laser as I liked the layout and fittings etc. My sail no is 177 so I must have been blind to something when I made my choice!

Trevor C · Post by **Trevor C** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:56 pm

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think a wooden GP14 has its merits and deserves to be well cared for too. Having owned and sailed GPs as well as Albacores I think the latter is way ahead and unlike the swordfish I rarely get wet.

Post by Ed » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:52 pm

Well....you gotta suffer for your art! I guess when you sail an IC and a Jollyboat you don't really put a boat's ability to keep you 'dry' that high on the list of important design features.

I wasn't really suggesting that all GP14s be put in a big pile and burnt.....just that personally they gave me no joy when I looked at one. I guess they are fine boats in their way. As Chris says good for taking the grandchildren out....but then so is a Waf, Albi, Fairey Falcon and many others...all of which look better to my humble eye.

But for most, sailing is about far more than just the boat's design and beauty or lack of it. I know that....the social side, the racing experience all are far more important for most people. I didn't really claim to be talking for others or with any reason, just saying that I prefer to interact with beautiful and well designed things rather than ugly badly designed things.

Ianphot is it seems on my side, given the choice, I too would choose a pretty little boat like the Lightning over the Laser.

Sail whatever makes you smile

eib

Ianphot · Post by **Ianphot** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:16 am

Excellent thread! And of course I use an Apple Mac too!

JimC · Post by **JimC** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:20 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ed</i> I think some of the coffins now sailing in the I14 and Cherub fleet are pretty ugly also (sorry Jim - both yours very pretty though).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Aesthetics are so much what you are used to: its strange. And the oddest things can make a difference. My most recent Cherub was repainted white by new owners and looks (to me at least) awful... White just doesn't suit it.

I think the fade was probably the best, but I quite like the spots as well... But can you remember how odd Ford Sierras looked when new, but now they are perfectly ordinary...

Post by Ed » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:44 pm

True on all counts....

you are right, I think she does look best with the fade....and worst in white.

The thing with many modern boats (some RS boats come to mind) is that they are unbelievably beautiful......but only under the waterline. when you turn them over, they are breathtaking, but they keep that beauty under wraps and show a much more conservative look to the world. Guess they might be shy.

Of course as with almost anything the photography can also make a big difference too.

Photo one gives hull a 3D look where you can see the curve of the chine and the sweep of the bow undersections, helped by the fade paintwork. On the other hand Photo three does not show you the curve or shape of hull and it looks very box like....again assisted by all white paintwork which just flattens it all off, destroying all the visual shape.

Reminds me of my days in photography (particularly assisting).....you start with a beautiful face.....then hair/makeup....then you gotta shoot it right. Any bit of that is wrong and the whole thing falls appart. To be honest, often I was amazed by how ordinary a model might be....but after really good makeup....and stunning lighting....the photography becomes a doddle. on the other hand sometimes you started with a georgeous face, but somehow you never manage to actually make it work on film like you imagined it in your head.

Ah those were the days....

anyway back to the computer....and its a damn PC!

cheers

eib

chris · Post by **chris** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:49 pm

Curious about the white but yes agree. However if you paint a clinker hull other than white I don't like it. A traditional white hull magogany decks (or at least mahogany somewhere) can't be beaten for looks I recon. the whit is the best way to show off the mahog.

keithr · Post by **keithr** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:25 pm

The swordfish may be bumping along the bottom but they still merit their own start at Abersoch. I had many a duel with them in the Ent.

Keith

stotty · Post by **stotty** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:08 pm

salut a tous
re colour etc photos of recently finished Blandford Nymph - to be exhibited at Douarnenez over the coming weekend
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i252/ ... c090e4.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i252/ ... MG0141.jpg
i agree white emphasizes the richness of a mahogany type ply deck etc
tony s

alan williams · Post by **alan williams** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:25 am

Hi Guys Can't agree Swordfish is a poor boat and deserved to fail to little freeboard at the stern making it a nightmare after a capsize and even dangerous offshore. What was Uffa doing every other design of his with a spinnaker has a grossly oversized kite while the Swordfish has one about the size of a Mirror. The Albacore is a far better boat alround being a splended sea boat and also rates faster than the Swordfish(years of development by top sailors Mike MaC, Mike Rimmer etc).
The Hornet is a Very pretty hard chine boat and far more attractive than some of the barrel shaped round hulled boats. I would sooner sail a GP than a horrible Fairy Falcon. The reason that the Hornet is in danger of dying out has nothing to do with the boat but the incompetentce of the Class Association which has done nothing to encourage new sailors or promote a cheaper alternative to the plastic very expensive soap dish which is built by the present builder. Cheers Al (sailed hornets for 40years on and off) Still sail one occasionally .

Post by Ed » Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:10 am

Well certainly agree that the Hornet is very pretty....I didn't say that all chine hulls were ugly...certainly not...some are georgeous. I also agree that the Fairey Falcon ain't no beauty contest winner.....although if I had to make a choice....I guess it would be for the Falcon...

As for the Swordfish being a poor boat, I don't have enough first hand experience to say, but my presumption always was that the lack of freeboard was largely due to the lack of a rear bouyancy bag. Early Fairey boats seemed to be sailed with a very low level of extra bouyancy. My Fairey 14 looks like it will be a big pain after a capsize. There is no doubt that the Albacore is now a faster boat, after as you say many years of development within the class.

I am sure that the problems that the Hornet is having is nothing to do directly with the boat and even less how it 'looks', the class association might have something to do with it....but I reckon it has far more to do with a general change in dinghy sailing and what the general sailing public wants and expects.

cheers

eib

alan williams · Post by **alan williams** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:27 am

Hi Folks
Just read through Chris's comments I agree great general purpose boat hence GP. But with Genoa and Spinnaker a very competive racing machine. The great thing about hard chine and chine boats is that they allowed home building for example the Miiror brought thousands of new people into sailing the Cadet class which has produced a fair number of Olympic Champions and hundreds of National, World and European Champs. The limited amount of boats being produced by professional builders in the 50's ,60's and 70,s could not have raised the numbers of people taking part due to the cost of having a boat built. I would far sooner sail an Ent GP Scorpian or even a Fireball (thats a confession from a Hornet sailor) than a N12, Firefly (even single handed), Merlin or Pegasus as they are all to cramped.I think that Hard chine boats have alot of criticism thrown at them because they are not pretty but are pretty functional. I defy a sailor of a nice comfortable round bilge boat to gybe a Hornet with kite up in a force 5 to get away with out a capsize especially on a crew decked boat. Why because hard chine boats have different handling technques. I have always felt that if you can handle a Hornet in a blow then any other two man boat with single trapeze is proberbly easier to sail. Hornets do not allow you to get away with your mistakes they dump you in. Cheers Al

Post by Ed » Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:57 pm

no doubt at all about the capability of hard chine boats.... we didn't start talking about capability or even functionality, but aesthetics.

And I never said that round bilged hulls were better looking than chined hulls....just that most round-bilged hulls, in my very humble opinion are better looking than most hard chine hulls. Some of the best looking boats of all are a mixture of both.

Also no doubt at all about the capability of Hornet sailors, past and present. Anything that skinny and chined is going to provide some challenges to sail.

Of course I am going to find all this out myself shortly.

MY new IC Conquest is a Holt design and build. It is reputed to be the direct forerunner to the Hornet, very similar, just a bit longer and a bit skinnier still.

It has a reputation as being quite a bit harder to sail than either the Nethercott of most Fox designs.

So......any help or suggestions on going fast....or staying dry will be gracefull excepted.

cheers

eib