Egyptian Cotton

[chris]

I've googled and search but apart from towels and sheets the only egyptian cotton plain material I can find is on a model makers website and I quess this is very thin. Any one know a supplier?
I have an old jib that is shot but the panels are too small to repair my sail with.

[Ancient Geek]

Chris,
I sourced some bits from Adndy Cassel at Ratseys in Cowes (WHICH I SENT ON TO GARRY.) he (Andy.) was trying to source a bolt I'll see if he had any luck failing that there are cotton sails on e-bay and canibalism may be the only answer! I'll try the traditional sailmakers in Denmark but they make for much bigger boats

[Ed]

I doubt you will find any real 'boat-quality' 'egyptian cotton'.....but don't stop looking...

but you should not find it too hard to find a lightish (5-7oz?) natural cotton canvas with a really fine thread. I doubt it will be from egypt....or made for sails....but it should not be too hard to find something for a patch.

You could try a canvas inter-leaving or backing material as used by high-quality furniture makers.

I have some of this somewhere, that I used as a photographic back-drop and it was very similar with a very tight weave.

I can think of two places I would go to buy (though there must be others)....and I don't know name of either.

The first is a wonderful place in Great (or little) Tichfield St in London W1. They have nothing but industrial and arts materials and canvases. Every canvas known to man....black-out material....waterproof etc etc. Small place, which may of gone by now as I have not been for 10 years or so.

The other place is the cloth-seller (what is proper name?) in St Nicholas Market in central Bristol, who always seemed to have a large range of commercial cloths.

What-ever you get, I think the first thing you will need to do is really shrink it hard.....so cut a test couple of meters and throw in the washing machine and dry and iron and see what it looks like.

tell us how you get on

cheers

eib

[Ancient Geek]

Precisely Andy's problem at Ratseys the stuff I got for Garry was genuine dinghy stuff from file marked 1955! It was Egyptian Cotton which I think refers to the equal warp-weft weave rather than geographic prevenance, though doubtles they did once grow the stuff, India and the southern USA rather overcame that I guess.

[Ed]

AG,

thanks for that re 'egyptian cotton' good to know

cheers

eib

[Ancient Geek]

The first to say I was not quite correct wikipedia says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gossypium_barbadense
Whic leads me to wonder if all those unused linen sheets my mother and Grandmother bought in the 1930's would do the job, not briliant white about the right weight I bought a pair of linen sheets last year
as a wedding present
£900.00 from the Irish Linen Shop!
I have about 50 prs still marked at 3/6d!!!!
I have even had the singles sewin into doubles but offering them as sailcloth never occured!
Anyway in extremis I might be peruaded tio sacrifice a 9' X 9' sheet with only one central seam.

[chris]

Thanks for the advice so far.
I had come across this site which may be of interest if looking for Egyptian cotton thread.
http://www.modellingtimbers.co.uk/4.html

I gather one of the qualities of EC is that it is taken from a particular type of cotton plant with very long smooth threads. so apart from a fine fine it is stronger than normal cottons too.

I had also found a place that advertises E.C for model makers' sails but I seem to have not saved the link. But I'll try that again.

This particular sail is made of rather lighter weight material than all the other cotton sails I have. But certainly a very fine quality stuff in that ivory/off white shade.

Thanks about the shrinking idea, Ed and I also found out the the warp/weft direction is important. The non stretchy direction (is that the warp or the weft) must be paralell to the leach - obvious when you think about it. I do have an old Jib someone gave me where the old luff wire has really rusted through the mareial but the panels are narrower and I would prefer to replace the whole panel really rather than patch. It's just above the top batten so only about 2 ft in length.

It's a sail with a story: It was given to me about 4years ago by someone in Guildford. The number was 54, but when I took those off I could see old stiching showing 216, and as you might remember Ed, one of the sail bags for Iska says 216. At one time the same man owned 216 and 6 together. Looking very closely I could even see 6 in the middle under the marks of 216, so after at least fifty years an original Iska sail found it's way back to the right boat. This was the first time I used it in earnest too as it is a small sail!

[Ed]

I also found out the the warp/weft direction is important. The non stretchy direction (is that the warp or the weft) must be paralell to the leach - obvious when you think about it.

And of course.....therin lies the 'simple' art of sailmaking!!

I remember you telling me about those sails.

Simone was just going down to Tragos to buy some material, so I asked her to dig around and see what they have got...

cheers

eib

[ACB]

I have been told, by a sailmaker, that cotton "ticking" is the best approximation to dinghy weight cotton sailcloth; in the best qualities it is tightly woven to stop the feathers and down poking out. He says that the best quality looks shiny when held to the light due to the closeness of the weave.

Needless to say it should be false seamed quite closely.

[Ed]

yeah,

I reckon that sounds pretty much like the stuff I was talking about.

cheers

eib

[Rupert]

Seems to me that Chris's story of the sails coming "home" is one of the things the cvrda is about, away from the race meetings. I wonder if Classic Boat would be interested in the story of the sails coming home, and the subsequent damage (and hopefully mend), as a short article, or a long letter? There must be photos from the weekend both pre and post damage? Roger may have some? Better publicity than any race report.

[Ed]

Maybe we could come up with a series of sails 'homecomings'.

I know I have told the story (I will keep it short) of when I sent my 1965 Ratsey Jollyboat sails back to Ratseys to have them cleaned.

I heard nothing for a couple of weeks, so rang them up to ask when they would be ready....

Long wait on phone and then someone comes back and says:

"Gosh, very strange, can't find them......we have them logged into the system....they must be here....but can't lay my hands on them.....very sorry....ur....will call you back"

The next day I get a phone call and the voice says:

"Hi Chris Ratsey here....I have an apology to make"

Well of course me heart is falling down through my pants as these were a very nice set of sails!! But I wasn't expecting the explanation.

Chris continued:

"When I say those sails.....I just couldn't believe it. You know they were made for Max Aitken (Yes, I knew that...) and they were the first set of sails I ever made by myself as an apprentice."

"When I saw them come in, I checked them in my records and then put them straight back in the bags and took them home to show to my family"

"I am doing all the work myself....at home and they will be ready shortly"

"But I should of made sure the loft knew....and that you didn't get worried about them going missing"

Another set of sails finding their way back to an earlier time in their life.

cheers

eib

[roger]

Yes I have some good pics, trouble is they are on dads putor and we didnt have time to load them onto a disc when we got the call to come home as Hannah has flu(pig type we assume). Will try to get them loaded and passed on.

[ACB]

I asked my friend Todd Bradshaw, an American sailmaker specialising in historic small craft, if I could post this and he has agreed:

" Hi Andrew,
Yes, the scoop on high quality cottons like Egyptian and Ventile is that the plants used to make them produce longer fibers than typical cotton has. This allows them to spin finer yarns and weave them more tightly, producing a stronger, smoother, more stable and more wind-tight cloth. The surface is usually less fuzzy than regular cotton due to fewer tiny fiber ends hanging out, and it will have a noticable slight sheen to it as a result (as well as improved dimensional stability when you tug on a piece of it). The largest use for these fabrics is in the bedding industry for premium sheets, pillows and comforters. For yard goods, it is often advertised as being "down-proof" (meaning that the feathers in down comforters are much less likely to poke through the tightly-woven fabric and escape). It's expensive, both because there is a limited trade in those particular types of raw cotton and because the looms have to go back and forth a lot more often to weave a fine-grained, tight cloth, but it's absolutely beautiful fabric. Even so, it's still cheaper than modern Dacron sailcloth if you can find a good source for it. "

It is instructive to stick "Ventile" into Google - the quality is above what we would require, which makes me think that somewhere in the damper parts of Britain will be a cotton mill only too happy to do a production run of dinghy weight Egyptian Cotton...

[Pat]

Ventile rang a bell:...

From PointNorth (http://www.profabrics.co.uk) under fabrics-cotton and natural fabrics

List price £7.39 +VAT per metre

WATERPROOF COTTON - LOOMSTATE product description

100% densely woven cotton.
This is an entirely natural product that offers a unique level of comfort, look and feel as well as being windproof, lighly breathable, very durable and quiet.
Very similar appearance and properties to traditional "VENTILE"

Uses; clothing, tents, smocks

Weight given per linear metre

Color
Loomstate

Size
Cloth Width: 154cm

Weight
0.330 Kg

They are a mail order supplier and also do lots of terylene sailcloths and spinnaker nylons and boat cover material, fleece and clothing material and tons of fittings/battens/cord/ and other really useful ancilliaries.