Getting a decent paint finish?

share hints, tips and experiences
Rupert
Posts: 6243
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Cotswold Water Park

Re: Getting a decent paint finish?

Post by Rupert » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:50 am

Don't Worry,Rich, the camera always makes them look better than they are...(yeah, right), and shiny sidedecks are a nightmare anyway. I covered 1/2 the length of Saskia's in suger in order to get some grip. Washing the remains off was fun - I destroyed a washing up sponge and then a brush trying to get the sharp bits off, so it didn't do the same to my wetsuit!
Also, on an old boat like your Phantom, the stripy sepele shave yourself in the varnish finish probebly isn't what she had in 1976, or whatever. A nice "normal" varnish job makes you cry less when you bash it, too!
Rupert

User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3477
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Re: Getting a decent paint finish?

Post by Ed » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:20 am

Steve Jevons is obviously a very talented man and long may he continue to practice the 'dark arts' of varnishing as passed down to him by generations of epiphanes-sniffing, owatrol swigging secret guild of varnishers.

I hope he makes a living and am more than happy to admire his work on brand new merlins at the Dinghy show.

But I really struggle with the relevance of this to the CVRDA.

This Forum is here to encourage people to do it themselves. To explain how they can do it the best of their ability...with confidence and support from the rest of us. To try and remove some of the 'mystique' that has always been layered on some of the crafts. It is certainly not here to support all that (I know, but I ain't gonna tell you bullshit)

I don't see how showing a brand new boat, varnished by a professional in any way helps Rich, in fact it is simply counter-productive.

There is no area that I feel more strongly about this, than in varnishing.

I am fed up with people saying "Oh, my varnish is so good because I use this special brush passed down to me by my grandfather who made it by hand using the hair from a badger's arse under a full moon, whilst murmuring the incantations of a 16th century monk".

It's all bull.

The varnish is good because of basic simple practical points: The preparation was perfect, the varnish was slightly thinned and warmed, it was re-coated within re-coating times etc.

I know with many years practice, you can do incredible varnishing with a brush. You can equal it first time - using the roll'n'tip method. I am not a professional varnisher and I presume that Rich is not either, so my advice is to read the section on this website on Varnishing and just get on with it and enjoy the process.

have fun Rich and we all look forwards to admiring it at an event.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

User avatar
Ancient Geek
Posts: 1133
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:50 am
Location: Sletten,3250, Denmark and Hampshire GU33 7LR UK

Re: Getting a decent paint finish?

Post by Ancient Geek » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:53 am

Ed you are right!
So so right.
The late Jack Holt would have added that you should varnish early on a still morning in high summer having dried the dew off the boat. He also advocated a heater under thwe boat to dry it from the inside of the coat of varnish as it were.
So much bullshit about the "dark arts", it is as a well known Meercat puts it simples!
Attachments
Alexander Meercat.JPG
(22.08 KiB) Downloaded 445 times
Simples.

User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3477
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Re: Getting a decent paint finish?

Post by Ed » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:39 pm

Now, there you go!

that is such a good idea - put a heater inside the boat.

Would help with varnishing, but would also be a brilliant idea when epoxy-coating.

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

Silverwood
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:02 pm
Location: Hampshire

14ft Javelins

Post by Silverwood » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:06 pm

I disagree Ed - the Merlin on show is (I believe) eligible to enter CVRD events and as a finish to aim for or to simply admire is absolutely superb. As someone who has "mended" (rather than restored) many old boats (Phantoms, 14ft Javelin (Uffa Fox design), Fireball, Enterprise, Mirror etc I acknowledge my painting and varnishing skills are basic and imperfect. My aim is to get a boat watrtight, looking reasonable and on the water sailing as quickly as I reasonably can. However, this does not stop me admiring and drooling over the superb finishes obtained by the dedicated and knowledgable amateur or the skilled and practised professional alike.
Long may good pictures decorate forums - and generate debate!
PS - does anyone know of any current 14ft Javelins.....it was my first boat and about 30 yrs old in the late eighties!

User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3477
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Re: Getting a decent paint finish?

Post by Ed » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:49 pm

Oh don't get me wrong.....

I like a good varnish finish and admire those who can produce them.

My point was that I don't like the 'dark art' that some people encourage others to consider varnishing.

It is a pretty simple exercise which can be quite adequately undertaken by anyone with a little care.

You don't need a £50 brush or 30 years experience to produce a perfectly adequate result.

By reading up on all the advice given here, you may well do a much better result than you would imagine.

Personally.....although I do like a good finish, I should say that on classic boats, I like a good finish using classic materials. I think you can go too far. I have seen classic boats with a deep-coating of perfectly clear hard epoxy or two pack that although a mirror-finish can also look cold, too deep, artificial and well....just plasticy.

Many years ago a Jollyboat turned up to a CVRDA event having just got back from a professional boat finishers. I was admiring it and asked another CVRDA member what they thought. "Horrible....looks like an MFI kitchen top"

He was kinda right and I thought it was an immense pity. the boat had been re-built beautifully by its owner a professional cabinet maker, who told me; "I can build em, but I get other people to paint them".

I just thought it would of looked much better with 5 or 6 coats of epiphanes on it.

There is also the perfectly practical point that any bumps or bashes on this kind of hard polished finish can be immensely hard to repair and normally has to go back to be re-sprayed and re-polished.

I am just not sure how appropriate this is with a 40-50 year old boat.

But I wasn't for one second suggesting any lowering of the very high standard of varnishing that we see in the CVRDA fleet.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

Rich
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 10:02 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Getting a decent paint finish?

Post by Rich » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:42 pm

I maybe should have titled my topic been 'Gettiing an average paint finish' as this is probably the best I can acheive. The photos of the shiny boats have not disheartened me, just put me in awe of what some people can do with a paint brush, but then I did ask didn't I.

The Phantom has now had 2 coats of gloss which have gone on averagely well (no runs yet). Some problems with dust, fibres from the jumper and hair falling out the head, but I 'll try and sort of this in a few weeks with the 1200 wet & dry. As previously suggested the gloss finish has highlighted the uneveness of the hull, my fault I'm afraid probably due to over indulgent use of the sander when stripping the hull, still you live and learn. The final coat will go on tonight then I intend leaving it till Easter when I'll set about it with the wet & dry ect, the decks will then need varnishing and the hull fitting out. Happy to show photos when\if it eventualy gets finished, just don't expect too much.

Rich
Rich

User avatar
Nessa
Posts: 2281
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:16 pm
Location: East Angular

Re: Getting a decent paint finish?

Post by Nessa » Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:16 pm

That meerkat was modelled on Vladimir Putin - that's why they gave it a strange accent.

Hi Rich, it's good to see a classic phantom in here.

As for varnishing, I'm very daunted by the thought of doing Agamemnon because the wood is so lovely I don't want to cock it up. I am, however, pretty determined to do it myself, which is partly why I have put it on hold and doing the MOGO, her streaker and then my own classic P as 'warm up' acts for the real thing. Already with scraping the MOGO I have learned things I wish I'd known when starting A - silly things like using a shavehook instead of a scraper, how far in front of the heat gun to hold the scraper etc. I'm working on the principle of practice making perfect-ish.

Silverwood, I've just picked up your message from Y&Y. Let me know if you do want a phantom at some point in the future, because if the MOGO works out I might be tempted to sell mine. if the MOGO sinks, however, it will be a different matter....

There was a Javelin for sale by the side of the road in Herts last year. They wanted £650 for it which was silly given eh condition of it. It is no longer there but I doubt they sold it.

I like pictures of nicely done boats.
The Peril
Agamemnon
Lovely little Cadet
OK 1954
Xena Warrior Princess
Finn 469
Laser 2
Wayfarer World

RichardB2
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: West Sussex

Re: Getting a decent paint finish?

Post by RichardB2 » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:13 pm

Oops! Sorry Ed. :oops:

User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3477
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Re: Getting a decent paint finish?

Post by Ed » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:40 pm

Gosh!

Don't be sorry! :lol:

I should be the one that is sorry for going off on a 'rant' about the 'varnishing being a black art' thing.

Wasn't aimed at you :(

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

Graham T
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:45 pm
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Contact:

Re: Getting a decent paint finish?

Post by Graham T » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:15 pm

I kind of agree with Ed - that was the point of putting the picture of the Osprey varnished on the drive with a cheapy paintbrush and single pack varnish. You can get reasonable results without any sort of black art. I normally use the roller and tip method but on that boat there is so much fiddly stuff on the floor where a roller wouldn't fit I started with a brush and never got round to changing for the decks. B&Q used to do packs of five cheap brushes that were very good for varnish but they have changed - the new ones with orange handles shed hairs..... Doing the job in the warm week we had last summer no doubt helped as everything just flowed on and I could work outside. Normally I work in a very cramped garage where I have to varnish one side then shove the boat over to the other wall so I can get down the opposite side. I use a couple of halogen floodlights to provide both heat and light when doing this.

Whilst we are all interested in good looking boats we mustn't get away from the fact that they are there to be sailed. If I were worried about sending the missus up the foredeck to retrieve the kite from under the boat because I might get some scratches then there would be no point in racing... And I might have to learn how not to sail over the kite in the first place
Graham T
Osprey 1340, Osprey 1245, Osprey 55, Miracle 1358, Laser heap, ancient Mirror kit half assembled, Project Miracle in need of decks........
Kielder Water Sailing Club

ICLYM
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:41 pm

Re: Getting a decent paint finish?

Post by ICLYM » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:15 pm

With all the comments on varnishing, no one seems to have discovered Epifanes Rapid Clear, 3 coats in a day gets a boat on the water quickly and its easy to use. For the final gloss you simply apply a coat of normal Epifanes.

Ivan

roger
Posts: 3026
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:08 pm
Location: Frome Somerset UK

Re: Getting a decent paint finish?

Post by roger » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:21 pm

We have a similar product we have found and probably cheaper. Three or four coats in a day. What is it??? G4. (pond sealer) Merlin 36 "Terrapin" was coated with this product after Chris rebuilt her from bonfire material. Four years later she still looks great.
I used it on Hornet 191 "shoestring" and have been very pleased with the results.

If you search G4 on this forum you will find lots of references to it.

Rog
Hornet 191 Shoestring,
Hornet 595 Demon awaiting restoration
Hornet 610 Final Fling
Hornet 353

User avatar
Nessa
Posts: 2281
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:16 pm
Location: East Angular

Re: Getting a decent paint finish?

Post by Nessa » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:24 pm

I am keen to try G4 on the MOGO. Does it need a base/top coat, or is it an all in one type thing? How much will I need, and does it go on both hull and deck? My next task will then be to track some down, though I have seen some on ebay.
The Peril
Agamemnon
Lovely little Cadet
OK 1954
Xena Warrior Princess
Finn 469
Laser 2
Wayfarer World

Rupert
Posts: 6243
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Cotswold Water Park

Re: Getting a decent paint finish?

Post by Rupert » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:50 pm

Just nip round to your nearest garden centre and ask. Beware, though, shake the tin. If it doesn't slop, don't buy it, as it goes solid very easily. I guess quantity wise, it comes out needing a little less than varnish, maybe. It is an all in one type thing, and goes on decks fine. On the hull, make sure you leave plenty of time (a week at least) before overcoating with normal paint, as the thinners it gives off slow the curing time of paint (and of varnish if you are going to do the decks with varnish on top).
Rupert

Post Reply