Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

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chris
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by chris » Tue May 18, 2010 8:45 am

A cutting gauge might be an answer. It's like a marking gauge but with a sharp blade instead of a steel point.
The blade should be turned round so that the bevelled side is going to be on the waste side of the piece.
having removed the old deck and cleaned up the rebate that's left check it is still absolutely parallel with the outer edge of the gunwale by running the gauge along (having set the gauge first). Use a shoulder plane if nesessary.
Next cut the ply to about 5mm oversize and lay it in situ so that all the rebate is covered but you haven't overlapped the outer edge of the gunwale and inwale. Cramp it down.
Run the cutting gauge along so that the cut will now be exactly above the line of the rebate. It is possible to cut right through the ply with persistance but I would go for just marking it well and cutting through the top layer of veneer. Then remove the ply and trim with spokeshaves and block plane down to your line.

It would also be possible to use a router in the same sort of way if you are used to them.
Set the router to clean up and trim the old rebate first so that you know you have a cut that follows the outer edge of the gunwale/inwale. Then reset the router so that the outer edge of the cutter is defining the cut rather than than the inner edge. Place some scrap ply under the new deck ply clamp in place and set the cutter depth to just penetrate the deck ply. Then your cut will exactly trace the rebate edge by using the outer edge of the inwale as your guide. But you may not be able to take the router to the extreem ends so a bit of hand work will be needed there.

It may be worth considering not removing the old deck before you cut the new one so that you have a firmer base to clamp the new ply to for working it. Then use the router to cut the old deckand rebate out which will leave the rebate acurate and clean in one go. Could save time.
photos show a marking gauge at the top and a cutting gauge below
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Last edited by chris on Tue May 18, 2010 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.


chris
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by chris » Tue May 18, 2010 9:17 am

Yes that's it.
Makes mine look rather old! but you can find them in junk shop for next to nothing - even convert a marking gauge is easy. The blade is only held in with a wedge.

Garry R

Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Garry R » Tue May 18, 2010 9:50 am

When you use a shoulder plane on an inside curved line do you not constantly miss a small piece right next to the gunwhale or do you just have to take that out with a chisel? Or is a bull nose plane the tool for that? The outside curve as you would have with an inwhale is less of a problem I imagine or am I talking rubbish?

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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Ancient Geek » Tue May 18, 2010 10:24 am

Boatbuilders use a plane with an adjustable sole here's a linkhttp://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan3.htm
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Simples.

chris
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by chris » Tue May 18, 2010 1:53 pm

There would be a difficulty using a compass plane to trim a rebate because the blade is not full width like a shoulder or bullnose plane. I don't think they are still being made and a secondhand one will still cost over £100, but the sort with an adjustable curved sole is a wonderful tool. Unless you are going to do a lot of deck replacements a short bullnose plane would be very useful. Stanley no.75 costs about £20 or the no. 90 is about £80 The cheaper one is fine and has the advantage that the blade angle (45% approx) is not shallow and would be better for cleaning old glue without spoiling the blade within seconds. These are only 3 or 4 " long and I'm sure would work on the inside of the sort of curvature we are talking about.
Alternatively buy an old wooden rebate plane and reshape the bottom to suit. these are usually about 9" long. Available in all good junk shops for a few pounds.

nos. 4 and 5 down in the photo show the two stanley bullnose planes. no 1 is a wooden rebate plane - note that the blade is full width, no 2 is one I modified. The two little brass ones at the bottom are suprisingly useful and not expensive. Axminster do a boxed set of three different ones plus a small sliding bevel and a small square for £32.
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Mungo
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Mungo » Tue May 18, 2010 2:10 pm

Thanks all for the advice.

The design of the outer rubbing strip is sadistic. The marking gauge is a great idea. It should work on the outer gunwale, but I think on the inner gunwale the rabbet is not a consistent depth from the edge. I can envision fitting the inner edge by using a template and patience, the outer edge could be done with the guage.

Replacing the lower half of the deck on the overhangs will be even more interesting

The rabbets (spelling?) actually come very clean as the old deck comes out. I have a few places where the glue has held the plywood in tight enough it splinters, but using a dull chisel (the only type I own) it sort of pops out.

The boat is remarkable in that there are subtle curves to many of the pieces of wood. That's what makes the boat so pretty. Going to make it hard to work on.

On another direction I would like to put the boat in a simple cradle to work on it. I built a 10 ft platform dolly so I can pull it in and out of the garage (garage 18'1", JB 18'). Any simple way to make hull shapes like below (taken from jollyboat page jiminy). Really just want to hold it steady and support it fore and aft. Would one of those bendable straight edges work?
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Ed
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Ed » Tue May 18, 2010 3:36 pm

I think cutting in both edges will be very hard. There would be no room at all for any inaccuracy at all.

Great if you can do it with confidence.....but I am afraid that for myself, I would look at what short cuts I could take, just to make it a teeny bit easier to do.

When mine was re-decked by Laurie Smart, he cut out the top of the rubbing strip and replaced that after planing the decks flush. that way you only have to get one side accurate. You have to really look to notice it has been done as you always look down on the gunwhales.

As for making the frames.....not sure how Ian did them. Maybe he will drop by sometime and tell us

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
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Graham T
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Graham T » Tue May 18, 2010 4:18 pm

A quick and easy way to make full hull supports that fit the boat exactly is to rough cut out the shapes you need from whatever cheap sheet material you have hanging around without bothering much about accuracy. Make a frame to hold them from whatever offcuts you can find in the nearest skip. With the boat upside down cover it with plastic sheet, place the rough cut framework on the hull and use a can of that expanding foam to fill in the gaps. Hey presto a perfect hull support moulded to the exact shape of the boat.
Graham T
Osprey 1340, Osprey 1245, Osprey 55, Miracle 1358, Laser heap, ancient Mirror kit half assembled, Project Miracle in need of decks........
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Ed
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Ed » Tue May 18, 2010 4:58 pm

Ha.....indeed, I am sure that would work.

getting the shape should not be too much of a task - a pretty standard template cutting job. cut it roughly right, drop it in place use a block of wood big enough to cover all the holes and run a pencil around the hull using the block as a spacer, Then once you have the accurate shape, cut again. It should be a perfect shape. you will however need to do both halves one by one.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Ancient Geek » Tue May 18, 2010 5:20 pm

What is vital is to get the keeline absolutely right if you support that well (to prevent "hogging" the hull will stay in shape with just some supports to the sheer to stop it twisting, spreading or becoming pinched. Support the stem and transom to prevent twisting too.
Simples.

DavidC
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by DavidC » Tue May 18, 2010 5:24 pm

For both the hull supports and making templates for a perfect fitting deck panel you need to master the art of spiling. Ed basically talks about it but you can do it very accurately with small pieces of ply and staples until you have formed your template and then transfer it to what ever sheet of main material you are going to use.

For the supports mount them a on a strong back and you will have a fine cradle.

There is a very quick video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0GDgadfj4k which gives the idea. It is second nature to boat builders and can be used to transfer bevels and all the other information needed.

Just an aside to Chris's comments about planes etc. I would not disagree other than add do not try to use them straight out of the box or you will get very frustrated. The tool must be fettled and the cutting iron worked and sharpened properly. It takes a little time but it is worth it. If you can't shave you arm with a plane iron or chisel then it is not sharp enough.

:)

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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Ed » Tue May 18, 2010 7:47 pm

Nice video......

although what he is doing looks like the 'other' way that I make templates.

that is to get some bendy wippy thin wood and wrap it around the bit you want a template for, then build up support struts with any old bits of wood going, fixing them in place with a glue gun. Once you have supported the whole length of the bendy wippy wood, you can remove the whole thing and transfer to some thick card or ply to build a proper template which can be fettled till it fits.

Works really well for complex shapes.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
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IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by DavidC » Tue May 18, 2010 8:37 pm

The video is a bit short! I think either system works, just as long as you have a solid template to transfer. We used to rip 8x4 sheets of 4mm ply into 1", 2" and 3" strips to make templates up. We tended to use staples because there was the air compressed staple gun on hand but a glue gun works just as well.

The staple gun worked well for shooting flies though, it had quite a fire rate! :twisted:

Mungo
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Mungo » Fri May 21, 2010 11:01 pm

Returning for more help....

As I move forward along the deck I have come to where there is a lot of,.... stuff (I really need to learn what these things are called, then maybe even what they do). They seem to be attached through the deck to ??
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I can remove the aluminium rail with no problem, the snapper rope gripper thing also. However the wood plate that surrounds the rail appears to be glued on. The screws that hold the deck on are below that wood plate.... Do I have to destroy it? Is there anything that makes glue flexible so I can pry it off ?. There is also the metal piece that the mast support wires attach to. They penetrate the deck and anchor to wood inside the tanks. I can remove the screws holding these pieces on but they certainly don't move. Looking inside the tanks I can see where the mast supports are attached but I can't get there without taking the sides off (which I would rather not). Tanks look good for a 50+ year old boat !
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Last thing, how can I get the spray guard (V shaped thing on front deck) off. Nicely screwed on (but also probably glued) but some off the screws are in the tanks.... I think the clock is ticking on taking the tank sides off.

I also am mystified with this complex shaped rub rail. How is held on to the boat? Certainly not much support just ply top and bottom up to the thwart (the seat like thing that crosses about the middle?). Two screws one at the bow and one at the stern...

I tried making cradle forms,... a humbling experience confirming I sit low on the evolutionary scale of simians that can trace a shape. I'm good at making lines, they just doesn't seem to resemble the object I traced after I cut them out.

Other than that a broken support under the rear deck, and a very small rot spot under one of the floor supports. Hull is number 196. The deck wood when it breaks has a wonderful sort of peppery smell (now someone will tell me that is the carcinogenic glue they used...)

I'll try setting up a blog site so I don't saturate this server with pictures

thanks

Mungo

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