Buying advice, please....
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Buying advice, please....
I've seen this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121738671543? ... EBIDX%3AIT
and it kind of appeals...
Built in '74 according to the N12 database.... and I think it's really pretty, tho the ad doesn't show the condition of the sails....
Could I be getting myself into a world of pain?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121738671543? ... EBIDX%3AIT
and it kind of appeals...
Built in '74 according to the N12 database.... and I think it's really pretty, tho the ad doesn't show the condition of the sails....
Could I be getting myself into a world of pain?
Matt
Int Moth K2992
Int Moth K2992
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- Location: The much maligned Swindon Town
Re: Buying advice, please....
I would go and see it. Look for any signs of rot where the varnish has lifted,and wet wood, any lifting paint, fine cracks going with the grain, and any signs of delamination of the ply, especially in the floor and where it has been twisted and curved during its construction. At the very least you will need to varnish it - although that does not necessarily mean a full stripdown at this stage. Far better to make good and see if you like her, without spending too much on her.
On the face of it, this boat is very 'retrievable'.
Pricewise, I have paid far less for better and far more for worse. I would consider putting in an offer you are comfortable with and see where you get.
Butler Boats are a boat manufacturing firm, but I think the price point is not unreasonable as a start point for negotiation.
Gooseneck should be easy to get a hold of, spare masts in the boat park of your club, or ebay.
Cheers
Steve
On the face of it, this boat is very 'retrievable'.
Pricewise, I have paid far less for better and far more for worse. I would consider putting in an offer you are comfortable with and see where you get.
Butler Boats are a boat manufacturing firm, but I think the price point is not unreasonable as a start point for negotiation.
Gooseneck should be easy to get a hold of, spare masts in the boat park of your club, or ebay.
Cheers
Steve
Steve Hawkins
1967 National 12 2383 "Sparkle"
1967 National 12 2383 "Sparkle"
Re: Buying advice, please....
You are buying from a boat yard so I should think they should know what is required for this boat. I think someone on minisail forum knows this boatyard.
Re: Buying advice, please....
I have known Dave Butler for years and you wont meet a more helpful or honest guy anywhere. Give him a call and he will tell you all he can.
Sam
Sam
Re: Buying advice, please....
What Sam said, Butler boats have a good reputation
Hornet 191 Shoestring,
Hornet 595 Demon awaiting restoration
Hornet 610 Final Fling
Hornet 353
Hornet 595 Demon awaiting restoration
Hornet 610 Final Fling
Hornet 353
Re: Buying advice, please....
I bought an N12 recently for similar money. Mine is in better condition than this one, but without the combi. It's absolutely fantastic fun - a bit like a scaled-down Merlin Rocket - and as "cheap as chips". The N12 Association people are extremely helpful too, and there is even a series of races for "four planker" N12s. If you buy the boat, but don't want the combi, please let me know as I will buy it off you for mine! Good luck, Gavin.
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Re: Buying advice, please....
So I made a 500 mile round trip today to go and have a look... Not too many horrors...
1:
Funny, overly long trailer, front mast support missing... I can bodge a replacement to get it home...
2:
This had me confused, until I realised the boom is the wrong way round!
3:
Hole punched in front bulkhead... presumably done by the mast foot... Either fit a hatch here, or a piece of ply over the top to strengthen, and prevent repetition?
4:
Shroud tensioners, but what's the small black cam cleat on the forward (right) side of the rib for?
5:
Muscle box present and correct... slight delamination of mast cheeks... not too worrying..
6:
Minor horror... transom flaps siliconed shut! Why?
7:
Bigger issue... Port deck edge broken off.. not structural.. seller suggested trimming both sides back...
8:
Biggest worry... last 6 feet of the starboard chine.. this isn't just the paint coming off, it's delamination.. I didn't poke too far, so don't know how far in it goes... if it's just a few mm, would a length of glass tape epoxied on suffice to fix it?
Otherwise, it's pretty good... a good clean and a coat of varnish / paint would do wonders... sails are reasonable.. 1 Mylar and one Dacron main... one jib... Most rigging present, and lead back to the thwart... clew outhaul a bit basic!
Any thoughts most welcome!!!
Matt
1:
Funny, overly long trailer, front mast support missing... I can bodge a replacement to get it home...
2:
This had me confused, until I realised the boom is the wrong way round!
3:
Hole punched in front bulkhead... presumably done by the mast foot... Either fit a hatch here, or a piece of ply over the top to strengthen, and prevent repetition?
4:
Shroud tensioners, but what's the small black cam cleat on the forward (right) side of the rib for?
5:
Muscle box present and correct... slight delamination of mast cheeks... not too worrying..
6:
Minor horror... transom flaps siliconed shut! Why?
7:
Bigger issue... Port deck edge broken off.. not structural.. seller suggested trimming both sides back...
8:
Biggest worry... last 6 feet of the starboard chine.. this isn't just the paint coming off, it's delamination.. I didn't poke too far, so don't know how far in it goes... if it's just a few mm, would a length of glass tape epoxied on suffice to fix it?
Otherwise, it's pretty good... a good clean and a coat of varnish / paint would do wonders... sails are reasonable.. 1 Mylar and one Dacron main... one jib... Most rigging present, and lead back to the thwart... clew outhaul a bit basic!
Any thoughts most welcome!!!
Matt
Matt
Int Moth K2992
Int Moth K2992
Re: Buying advice, please....
> Minor horror... transom flaps siliconed shut! Why?
Probably heavier sailor. Silicone the transom flaps and they won't leak, but you can push them out with a toe if you d need them, then renew the silicone the next dry day.
> Delamination
or a split chine? both awkward, if you can really get glue in it may be OK. Take a good look at the inside too. Consider really fine glass available from model shops rather than yacht chandler heavy duty glass tape.
Probably heavier sailor. Silicone the transom flaps and they won't leak, but you can push them out with a toe if you d need them, then renew the silicone the next dry day.
> Delamination
or a split chine? both awkward, if you can really get glue in it may be OK. Take a good look at the inside too. Consider really fine glass available from model shops rather than yacht chandler heavy duty glass tape.
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Re: Buying advice, please....
This boat has a tank across the stern...
It has a tunnel through it which means there's no way you'd kick the flaps open!
It also means I could only inspect part of the inside of the chine... and it looked fine!
It has a tunnel through it which means there's no way you'd kick the flaps open!
It also means I could only inspect part of the inside of the chine... and it looked fine!
Matt
Int Moth K2992
Int Moth K2992
Re: Buying advice, please....
Hi Matt, I've dealt with split chines on a wooden yacht (23ft David Thomas racer).
I caught them early so just let the boat dry out, then ground out about 75mm either side of the chine. Cleaned the area well and then wetted out with epoxy before laying on and rolling in kevlar tape. I then filled and faired before painting - you didn't know the job had been done.
I also similarly 'strapped' the hull with kevlar around the shroud take off points. (I thought that stresses from both the rig and pounding into waves may have caused the problem) The weight was negligible in terms of a yacht. The repair also lasted through horrendous weather and seas.
Doubt you'll need Kevlar but hopefully gives you some ideas.
I caught them early so just let the boat dry out, then ground out about 75mm either side of the chine. Cleaned the area well and then wetted out with epoxy before laying on and rolling in kevlar tape. I then filled and faired before painting - you didn't know the job had been done.
I also similarly 'strapped' the hull with kevlar around the shroud take off points. (I thought that stresses from both the rig and pounding into waves may have caused the problem) The weight was negligible in terms of a yacht. The repair also lasted through horrendous weather and seas.
Doubt you'll need Kevlar but hopefully gives you some ideas.
Re: Buying advice, please....
Only 2 boats built to this design - says it all. Stern tanks on this vintage can be a problem - take out and put in bags. Would look out for a China Doll or Cheshire Cat if you really want a 4 planker.
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- Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:18 pm
Re: Buying advice, please....
And no history on the other one.. this boat is probably unique!Mikey wrote:Only 2 boats built to this design -
Matt
Matt
Int Moth K2992
Int Moth K2992
Re: Buying advice, please....
There is probably a reason for that.realnutter wrote:And no history on the other one.. this boat is probably unique!Mikey wrote:Only 2 boats built to this design -
Matt
The split chine would be my biggest worry, if the glue is failing you may end up doing the whole boat.
Hornet 191 Shoestring,
Hornet 595 Demon awaiting restoration
Hornet 610 Final Fling
Hornet 353
Hornet 595 Demon awaiting restoration
Hornet 610 Final Fling
Hornet 353
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- Posts: 212
- Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:18 pm
Re: Buying advice, please....
From the inside there was no evidence of the chine splitting... it just looked like the outermost ply coming off....roger wrote:The split chine would be my biggest worry, if the glue is failing you may end up doing the whole boat.
But, yes.. taping the whole hull would be time-consuming....
Matt
Int Moth K2992
Int Moth K2992
Re: Buying advice, please....
I thought the China Doll was a traditional 7 planker? Wasn't the Paper Dart the 4 plank development? (I remember the Darts very well from my early sailing days at the Royal Harwich at Woolverstone). From memory they where built by a local, David East . The 12s at one time at Woolverstone almost looked like a one design class!Mikey wrote:Only 2 boats built to this design - says it all. Stern tanks on this vintage can be a problem - take out and put in bags. Would look out for a China Doll or Cheshire Cat if you really want a 4 planker.
Given the Darts were well built there's sure to be some still around (although they are, of course, glass - although there was one wooden one I remember). They didn't like being T+boned by Wayfarers at speed though!