Bosham classics

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PeterV
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Bosham classics

Post by PeterV » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:47 pm

No CVRDA entries and some discussion on Facebook about our rules, I wondered why none of the CVRDA regulars attend.

For myself, I've been wanting to go for years, I prioritise the event on the calendar but every year I find early September is chock full of events all competing for my time. I had 3 things this weekend I wanted to go to and ended up sailing in Bursledon regatta on Saturday morning which left me free to do other things in the afternoon and Sunday, and means I can spend next weekend at the Finn Inlands and probably the one after at Clywedog. So for me it's a very desirable event but at the wrong time of year.
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Rupert
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Re: Bosham classics

Post by Rupert » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:44 pm

I was working, but I know the change of date did for 3 Minisail entries.
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davidh
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Re: Bosham classics

Post by davidh » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:35 pm

Peter,

i don't think that the CVRDA rules or entrance criteria are under scrutiny. But the question "where was everyone" is worthy of being asked. In the same way, your own earlier comment, praising the low rider event in Scotland - which comprised many boats that are not even CVRDA eligible, whilst ignoring the Bosham event, speaks volumes.

Fixture congestion is clearly an issue but there is something else going on...possibly down to the perception that the event is more elitist than many of the CVRDA events - but who knows...it was why the question was asked, for as the CVRDA moves towards it's 20th anniversary, should we be rethinking what we do, how and where...and when we do it, in what.....
Having been to other events around the UK, there is the start of a perception that the CVRDA is being marginalized. But how to get back to the mainstream

D
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Pat
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Re: Bosham classics

Post by Pat » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:04 am

Fixture congestion is certainly a big reason - 3 events in three weeks was too many. For us, Bosham is not relaxed and enjoyable like other events - there's a lot of hassle and expense just to be there with pay & display car parking, lugging kit across town from car park to club and no camping or campervanning available.
In particular we were put off the event last time a couple of years ago, when we were told to "get that tatty old plastic Albacore out of the way so it doesn't get into the photographs" which is not a nice way to treat a typical early seventies representative of a classic class. Yes the paint isn't pretty, but it emphasises that posh paint jobs are not necessary to go sailing old boats, just get it out the dinghy park and on to the water. This year celebrating Ian Proctor made some GRP boats acceptable at Bosham thankfully.
Another comment I've heard about Bosham is that prize-giving seemed to spend longer thanking and rewarding the helpers than it did the winners. It certainly seemed to go on for ages and ages every time we've been.
To Sandy & I, Bosham seems to be about throwing money at old wooden boats with people boasting about how much they had paid to have their old boat turned into wood reinforced plastic (fully epoxied), immaculately painted and fitted with new modern fittings and sails.
We had far more fun at Banbury with close racing between un-modernised boats and also for a fairer comparison, at Aldeburgh which is a similar club to Bosham and a nice event. So we support the Bosham event by publicising it to others such as the Adventuress, but don't especially want to go to it.
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JimC
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Re: Bosham classics

Post by JimC » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:39 am

Pat wrote:...but don't especially want to go to it.
All that has a certain resonance for me, and I have family in the area.

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Re: Bosham classics

Post by davidh » Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:14 pm

Pat,

re the comment on the Moths, I agree that whilst Lyndon and Ian sail older boats, looking at the list of those sailing in the reported event in Scotland (which was the point that I was making), the majority of those are way too modern to ever be considered CVRDA legal. but, as low riders, they are welcomed at events and rightly so. But I for one did find it a tad bizarre that we'd celebrate one event but not the other...…

Of course there are lots of reasons why people don't attend events, some of it, as Jim C rightly pointed out, has to be a simple matter of personal preference. This doesn't though negate the question as to should the CVRDA look to be more visible at events such as Bosham? Like Marmite, you might love it or you might hate it but the bottom line now is that if you look at recent CVRDA events, Aldebrough and Bowmoor spring to mind here, that attendances have to be a worry. I couldn't make the East coast but was at Bowmoor - if you took out the three Int. Moths that sailed on the Saturday, then you had a Finn, Albacore, GP14, Peggie and two Minisails; out of the whole fleet, two of the Moths and a Minisail were presented in such a way as to be deemed as finished restorations.

I full appreciate that this is sailing into dangerous waters, for the last time I questioned why the CVRDA didn't support the bigger and better events, the answer came back in the form of suggestions that we should indulge in more shed racing activities - who could buy, then race the cheapest clunker that they could get off ebay! Sadly, many a true word is said in jest, but when it is backed up by comments claiming that Bosham was "all about getting your 'man' to apply 27 coats of varnish while you wear red trousers" one might wonder if there is a genuine gulf in the perceptions of what the classic dinghy scene is all about.

A decade ago, when I first refocused by writing onto the classic scene, the CVRDA was THE place and as I wrote after the excellent meeting at Hunts a few years back, that 'umbrella' seemed to be working well. But the low riders are going one way - luckily the right way, as are the Minisails, but the classic Merlins have really shot their bolt following the Flipside affair, I'm not sure where the classic Finns are right now, I'm not seeing any stories for me there and as for the classic 505s, here is a salutory lesson how NOT to do the classic scene.


Don't get me wrong! I believe in the CVRDA, almost like an article of faith. The wings that are there, the age bands and the wonderful store of knowledge is something not just worthy of keeping, but of building. The active people who sail at the events are all sailors that you'd be happy racing against - friends as well as competitorsTHis brings us back to the question - with the 20th anniversary on our doorstep, is it time for at the very least a re-appraisal of who we are and what we stand for?

This isn't being negative but quite the opposite......
D
PS - have great pictures of the Adventuress for you
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PeterV
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Re: Bosham classics

Post by PeterV » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:49 pm

i congratulated the Moths because they have succeeded in resurrecting racing for low riders after their class association seemed to ignore them. By offering an open invitation to them, regardless of age, the CVRDA have provided a place for them to race, grow and thrive. They are in the same position as Classic Finns were, the class association ignored them so under the CVRDA they met and grew. The Finn class association has now made significant steps to include classics back in the events, and I for one consider that a major achievement for the CVRDA. If the Moth class association also sit up and notice and welcome the low riders back I will be pleased.

I would be very sorry if the classic dinghy scene split into 2 factions. The Roadford event was won by a Javelin bought off eBay for a couple of hundred pounds, but it was a smart well sorted and well sailed boat which deserved to win. The modernisation of boats shouldn't cause anyone any real concerns as the handicap should cater for this, as the CVRDA does, it's surely the owners individual choice what he wants to do with the boat and how he wants to sail it. This means though that the handicap adjustment must be a means of providing fair racing rather than being regarded as penalising modernised boats unnecessarily. Neither should it be the case that an unmodernised boat is completely unable to compete in a class's classic division. However, class events probably will not use handicaps so The Finn's use of Classic and Classic with carbon divisions caters for both camps.
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SoggyBadger
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Re: Bosham classics

Post by SoggyBadger » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:30 pm

Out of curiosity how many Bosham boats attend CVRDA events?
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SB

davidh
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Re: Bosham classics

Post by davidh » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:05 pm

Tony,

Short answer - none that I know of and yes, I did ask the question (though there have been boats that do both, but not actually from BSC).

Just like when asking the questions the other way, the answers are complex but - if I had to put my finger on any trends, the topics raised would include the use of the 2 digit py system, poorly supported events, an inward looking attitude and an overall lack of quality. Some of the more pointed comments are not for here - ask me the next time I'm up visiting Miles, but in some quarters, it has to be a concern that the Association is not held in the highest of regard.

Nevertheless - the CVRDA has to be championed, where would the classic scene be without it??

D
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Re: Bosham classics

Post by SoggyBadger » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:29 pm

I think anyone who criticises 2 digit handicaps is completely missing the point of classic dinghy racing.
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SB

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trebor
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Re: Bosham classics

Post by trebor » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:05 pm

David,
Do you not think event would have been better set on neutral ground, if their is a perceived divide between CVRDA and BSC.
I didn't attend because from all I have read the club appears to be elitist, I am probably wrong, never having been there, so apologies to Bosham, plus it seemed abit left field to attend a club that wouldn't allow my boat under normal circumstances, again I may be wrong regarding that too. I wouldn't have hesitated to attend a CVRDA event.
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Re: Bosham classics

Post by Rupert » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:04 pm

You mention lack of quality, David. This the boats or the helming skills? Either way, I'm glad whoever thinks that doesn't bother coming along if they are so blinkered.
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JimC
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Re: Bosham classics

Post by JimC » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:57 pm

SoggyBadger wrote:I think anyone who criticises 2 digit handicaps is completely missing the point of classic dinghy racing.
I'm rather of the opinion that anyone who think they are a significant problem doesn't understand Portsmouth Yardstick very well. I don't altogether enthuse about them, but I understand the logic, especially at the time when the decision was made. Its kinda ironic that I have exactly the same feeling about the 4 digit PY numbers, which I also don't enthuse about, even though I have a responsibility for setting them these days.

If the 2 digit numbers are seen as a problem for many RCs, I'd be happy to work with the CVRDA Committee on a means by which we could have our own set of 4 digit numbers and a data set for clubs to use. Don't underestimate the amount of work involved though, it involves some sort of liaison with classes to work out dividing lines, and then you get issues like the Merlin Rocket historical numbers being founded on thin air and wet fingers...

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Re: Bosham classics

Post by Rupert » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:38 pm

2/3 digit numbers were used to discourage trying to translate them, as quite frankly, it works very poorly. Granulation of numbers is, from my experience, a far smaller issue than what kit boats are using and how hard people are willing to push modernised boats compared to originals. As these permutations are massively variable, we can simply take an educated stab in the dark and hope we get some close racing. We are still getting a right old mix of boats, so either the yardsticks are working, or very few people care. I'll go with the latter, despite my personal interest in handicapping.
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Pat
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Re: Bosham classics

Post by Pat » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:20 am

I agree with Rupert and anyway since we race only old boats and the 4 digit PY is set from the modern club fleets, how can we compare when we don't have modern boats racing with us to benchmark against?
I know from our own club racing that in the 1974 built blue Albacore we are mid fleet at our club both on the water and in results, whereas in our 2004 built, lighter, more responsive Albacore (using the same set of sails in both boats!) we are top of the fleet and usually fastest boat. And that's in a one design where we push both boats equally, the old-new difference is even more marked in development classes and more delicate boats yet we're expected to all use the same 4 digit PY when outside CVRDA.
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