Just gently trolling....

Post by **neil** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:00 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Rupert
 
How do we find proud owners of vintage dinghies (other than Merlins or Rockets!) and get them to show off their boats at events? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

this is difficult...the problem I have with Rannoch (1947 with the orignal mast) is that I'm dependent on the wind being light for me to sail - I'm not as brave as the vintage Merlin owners. This meant sitting out two days at Roadford a couple of years ago as the wind got up. I just don't want to risk the rig going over the side and I'd rather not capsize the boat either, which is difficult not to do it being an International Canoe.

I now just trail the boat down to the lake if the wind's light and this was the reason for buying the Finn for Traveller's events as it's a more robust boat that a vintage IC, as shown at Clywedog!

It's also handy having a Tideway if it gets really windy......

So if we can arrange for light winds (and sun) then I'd be more than happy to bring a vintage boat along.

Rod · Post by **Rod** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:21 am

Let me chime in from the States. Interesting discussion with a wide range of views which is typical since CVRDA attracts a diverse lot. One CVRDA member may drool over a Proctor MK1 MR restoration and not find a Revo Hornet particularly interesting and vice versa. My experience with long in the tooth local classes that have experienced a resurgence, is that they have remained vital with a mixture of old and new boats. As Rupert pointed out, the vintage wing is very small and likely to remain that way as there is a small group of sailors willing to resurrect near wrecks for their historical value. So, the debate see saws back and forth, how modern is the CVRDA willing to go? Flexibility within a CVRDA consensus seems to be the key. If one disregards the current CVRDA eligibility, why not beat the bushes and roust up 4-5 Mirror 14 sailors to make one of the CVRDA events the "national" get together; this would benefit CVRDA with increased attendance and benefit the owners of a lost class. Or maybe one event could be designated, as the 1960's singlehanded trials event where old Contenders, Units, Vikings, Toys would be encouraged to attend. Or an event that featured classes with balanced lug rigs. Maybe it is time to appoint a class selection committee within the CVRDA that says, yes we have these broad rules but for 2007 we make the exceptions for these classes. All in all, it would make for an interesting mix of boats at CVRDA events.

Alas, if I tried to make a CVRDA event with my Maser (a clapped up Laser chopped up to fit the Classic Moth rule - looks a little like a short Souter Casson 14 without the bow chine) I would be turned away but I wager most of you would find it an interesting dinghy. At most of these events it is the shoreside show that trumps what happens on the water.

Rod

jpa_wfsc · Post by **jpa_wfsc** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:46 pm

A cruise in company at, before or jsut after Netley would realy go down well. As there would I hope be a support boat or two, if there are any non cruising boats there (IC's for e.g.) then hopefully it would be possible for some to sail out and to return in the RIB(s) and vv.?

Pat · Post by **Pat** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:03 pm

With a little advance warning some of us can bring two boats down from Shearwater so if we need an extra boat or two for cruising it could be done. Also there are plenty of GPs and Ents and Albacores etc which are usually short of crew, just make your situation known.

chris · Post by **chris** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:03 am

Several points since I last read this thread.
1, yes, I like the idea of some cruising somewhere.
2, Vintage boats and the vintage class...
I agree that this area needs any encouragement it can get. I didn't want to sound too biased in my own favour before but I'm against merging the vintage and classic wings because we are begining to see a few more of the vintage class boats turning up to events now. Vintage (ie ribbed) boats certainly take a particular frame of mind for their restoration and subsequent care and being by definition quite old may need more restoration than seems sensible but now is the time to preserve them. John's boat, merlin 36, certainly needed lots of work but another year or two outside in a boat yard and it would have been a heap of dust and a historically interesting boat lost for ever. I know of several other vintage merlins being restored around the country so I hope the Vintage wing will continue to grow. And that there is a good incentive to restore vintage boats in vintage style ie. with minimum modernisation.
But Yes, Neil, lighter winds for these boats please! (I'm currently restoring an Albacore c,1963 so that I have something more robust and sea worthy.)

I do agree about the knock-on effect. Yes people like to see old boats but also to join in. i think that has happened at Shearwater and I may have had something to do with starting that ball rolling I suppose but it also about letting people realise they have a boat that may be eligible anyway. So rules with discretion I recon .

One suggestion about the 25 year-old rule might be to raise this thresehold at a slower rate. Say every five years it increases by one year. So the current cut off date of 1982 remains set for the next five years, then 1983 for 2012-2017 and so on.

DavidC · Post by **DavidC** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:31 pm

This is an interesting and very important discussion thread. When I said re-work the wings I was not thinking of combining the vintage and classic sections. The vintage boats should always be treated with reverance after the care that is lavished on them.

I still think we must try to be inclusive but without opening the door to "mass market boats". The obvious way is to exclude the Single Manufacture One Designs - current and defunct. This would also include the Laser, unless someone could demonstrate a special case for a particular single example. I am thinking here of the GRP Topper. It is not welcome in the Topper Class, so should we offer it a home?

If a class has an established class association, then generally they will be well supported whether they sail within the class or sometimes at our events. It is the Lost wing which perhaps is the answer. Maybe it should be nore that prototypes and interesting boats, but include the moribund classes that generall fit the principles we whics to encourage. I doubt many of the Bell Flyer were built, but they will need a home when they appear.

We have a good handicap system and that should be our strong point in ensureing that we maintain fair racing, yet do not lose boats that are good to see afloat.

hayes · Post by **hayes** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:45 pm

Ed, can you remember why we chose the 1965 cut off design date? I can't remember, but it seemed appropriate at the time.

The 25 year rule also felt right. My concern is that by allowing newer classes and boats into the Association we will dilute the fundamental reason why the CVRDA ( That's CLASSIC & VINTAGE RACING DINGHY)was formed in the first place.
I don't believe this should be changed.

As it is, my MR 3125 NSM1 design now qualifies and it is still very quick. The problem will be race organisation. The more modern quicker boats that are allowed in the greater the difference in race duration there will be between the vintage and modern dinghies. This is already a problem, particularly at the start where the slow boats get stuck much longer in dirty wind slowing them even more and giving an unfair advantage to the faster boats who can get away, and I sail one of the quicker boats!

Andy

Post by Ed » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:40 pm

Andy,

Amazing what a little trolling will do....

the 1965 cut off date was originally my idea and was a direct copy (rip-off) from the world of off-road motorcycle competition, who had (and still do) a 'pre-65' class, a 'vintage' (normally brit solid-end bikes) and a 'twin-shock' class that goes up to about mid-late 80s in trials competition and also a pre-65 class in motorcross.

But it fitted a need, we just had to work out a date and 65 seemed like (and still does) a good date.

The wings system has always been bit of a cludge.....but then so is any handicapping system. I still think it basically works well, although there are some boats that don't really fit. It has always worried me a bit that the vintage class can/could have a boat that in theory was not old enough to go in with the 'old' wing. Also you have some boats which are classic by definition but seem more in place with the vintage boats....or the other way around. My Int 14 for instance was built in 1949 and seems a much older beast than a 1965 Peggie or Albacore or something, yet we stick it in with the classic wing because it's construction seems to suggest it fits best there.

But it is important to remember that none of this is written in stone and is simply there to provide a framework for a club to provide racing that suits 'classic and vintage' boats.

My original troll was to remind that in our original plans we suggested boats could be newer than 1965, only if older than 25 years old and from a pre-65 dev class.....i.e. a 26year old Firefly, Ent or Albacore would not of been able to join in. We were originally more worried about providing some support for the 26 year old 14s Merlins, 12s and Cherubs, but not that bothered about the one-designs. We changed that - which was the right decision. But it just interested me that we originally thought different.

Yes, I agree that epoxy-foam builds are now starting to become sailable at CVRDA events....and this needs to be watched and handled with care. But for my money, as long as they are happy to sail with classic and vintage dinghies on a handicap system which is blatantly trying to encourage Classic and Vintage boats, then I say fine.
For years I sailed my Jollyboat in modern fleets on handicaps that were completely and grossly unfair, but I didn't complain....we just started the CVRDA to allow classic and vintage boats a chance.

In other places, we have just bent and moved the rules a bit to fit.... a 25 year old Firefly is always in the 'classic' wing for instance.

Also remember that who races has (so far) always been up to the organising club. There have been many precendents for non-allowable boats racing either on a daft handicap or with no result given. For me, the important thing is the attitude of those taking part, as long as everyone is into old boats, I am normally happy to race with them.

cheers

eib