Single handed PN
-
Bill Sylvester
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:11 pm
Our club takes 40 off for sailing single handed in a double handed boat. which would make the py1122 I think. Though some argue that the firefly is designed to be either single or double and this is irrational . I think at one time this 40 difference was specified by the RYA in the portsmouth system.
Making the case for an old boat handicap at club level is probably going to be hard for a one design.Older fireflies, Albacores etc can still compete equally with modern ones as long as they are 'up together'. The development classes make more sense here and most such class association issue arange of numbers to help. All our club's Albacores which range from early '60s to modern sail off the given py.
If your sailing committee is open minded a Trial Number which can be re assesed would be a suggestion. Contact the RYA or their website.
And on the other hand a PY system shouldn't make allowances for a boat that is simply unmaintained and using ancient sails etc. We do something of that in the CVRDA but I don't think anyone is making the case that this is the way to run club racing.
Good luck, let us know what happens.
Making the case for an old boat handicap at club level is probably going to be hard for a one design.Older fireflies, Albacores etc can still compete equally with modern ones as long as they are 'up together'. The development classes make more sense here and most such class association issue arange of numbers to help. All our club's Albacores which range from early '60s to modern sail off the given py.
If your sailing committee is open minded a Trial Number which can be re assesed would be a suggestion. Contact the RYA or their website.
And on the other hand a PY system shouldn't make allowances for a boat that is simply unmaintained and using ancient sails etc. We do something of that in the CVRDA but I don't think anyone is making the case that this is the way to run club racing.
Good luck, let us know what happens.
A singlehanded Firefly is still slower than an equally well sailed 2 handed GP14. We knock 20 points off for singlehanded sailing at Whitefriars, and this seems to give similar results for helms who do both. Thsi would mean sailing off 1142, which means you have to beat a Solo by a small amount. A 1958 Solo with original kit, maybe...
Rupert
At Baltic Wharf we sail a Firefly off 1162 and a singlehanded Firefly off 1140. I agree with Chris, age doesn't really matter with the Firelfies, on 1140 even the oldest is still very difficult to beat. I think there's only justification for different handicaps when the class has clearly changed, lowered the weight, changed the rig etc. such that the newer one's are significantly faster.
PeterV
Finn K197 & GBR564
Warsash
Finn K197 & GBR564
Warsash
I am sailing my Firefly single handed at moment at Saltash. At present they have not adjusted my handicap for doing so....although I suggested that I was happy enough to go down that route if the club thought it best. I also used to sail at Baltic Wharf single handed, and that was at the time when club agreed on 1140 for the Firefly single handed.
I have sailed quite a bit single handed in the Firefly, but as ever with handicapping, it is not quite that simple when you get down to the nitty gritty.
The problem is that it totally depends on the type of sailing that you do and to an extent on 'why' you are applying the handicap.
I will start with the 'why'. Some clubs (this was argued at BWSC) apply a cut of 40 for the purpose of dissuading people from sailing a double-handed boat single-handed....and especially when it is done for performance reasons. As in, 'Oh no wind today....I will leave my crew on the bank'. In other words it is a 'punitive' handicap. Strangely enough.....I hate seeing double handed boats being sailed single-handed. I do it in the Firefly totally because I believe the Firefly has a well established tradition of being sailed single handed and because I think that for small river/lake sailing, it makes a damn good single-hander. It is only 12ft and it has Mk 1 decks, so there is little room for my 15stone body and any other adult human frame. As much as I dislike seeing a double-hander being sailed one-up, I really dislike seeing people sail sometimes one-up and sometimes two-up, dependent on weather conditions.
Quite a while ago, I had a talk on this very subject with someone (Firefly Captain?) at Upper Thames SC, who have a long tradition with the Firefly and still host a single handed Firefly race. He argued that there should not be any difference for the boat when sailed single-handed.....BUT.....Once a Firefly had been entered into a race or series as one or the other, you could not change your mind for a later race in series. In other words you couldn't pick and choose. This makes total sense to me.
OK....so what should it be anyway?
Well I think this totally depends on the type of sailing and the weather conditions.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Firefly when sailed in low fickle winds on a river or small lake that demands quick tacking is a superlative choice for the conditions. In these conditions, whether double or single handed it can easily sail to its PY and arguably the PY should be altered by a club if these conditions are the norm. However sailing it single handed can really help you make the very very best of your advantages and can allow you to sail well above handicap with comparative ease.
BUT......as soon as the wind gets up....or as soon as you are trying to sail on a bigger bit of water, in fact if it is any kind of sailing where you are relying on boat-speed rather than sailing-skill you can just forget it.
Even though I am around 15-16 stone (Best Firefly crews are around 19-21 stone)there is no way that I can efficiently hold down the Firefly in windstrengths over F 3-4. On a big lake or sea in F3 or over, there is no advantage to being single-handed - in fact I would strongly suggest you are at a disadvantage.
So after much talk....what do I think it should be?
Well....of course I a biased....but I think that as long as it is always sailed single-handed, in big winds and little winds across a whole series of races, it should be on the normal handicap. There is no doubt that you will have an advantage in some races, but loose out in others, but over a series it will more or less even out (this was UTSC attitude).
But what do you do in the case of a one-off race, well of course this will depend on the conditions. In low winds or a river there is no doubt at all that taking 20 off will still leave you with a damn good handicap. If it is windy and or on a largish lake, I don't see how you can justify taking anything off.
However, if you sail on a river all the time....or if it is an evening series where you will expect low-winds as the norm....I think that an added 20 is pretty fair. But if you want to pick a figure which is there to stop helms from grabbing a crew when windy, then you will need 40 which certainly is punitive enough to do the trick.
At Baltic Wharf, 1140 (used to be 1142 or 1143) did seem about right....over a series, but personally I still think a boat should either be sailed single-handed or double-handed within a series.
I don't think you can really make an adjustment for the fact that the boat is a 1958 boat, or that it has an old mast or sails or whatever. The PY is worked out on the speed of a good typical example of the boat within the class. Of course as Chris says, we do do exactly this for CVRDA racing....but that was the original point and never supposed to be an example for club racing.
I hope that helps.
It may be worthwhile looking through Firefly Forum Archive as I know the subject has been discussed there as well.
Would certainly be interested in other people's thoughts. I think that the CVRDA has traditionally not changed the Firefly handicap for s/handed....anybody care to look through the results and make any deductions from those?
cheers
eib
I have sailed quite a bit single handed in the Firefly, but as ever with handicapping, it is not quite that simple when you get down to the nitty gritty.
The problem is that it totally depends on the type of sailing that you do and to an extent on 'why' you are applying the handicap.
I will start with the 'why'. Some clubs (this was argued at BWSC) apply a cut of 40 for the purpose of dissuading people from sailing a double-handed boat single-handed....and especially when it is done for performance reasons. As in, 'Oh no wind today....I will leave my crew on the bank'. In other words it is a 'punitive' handicap. Strangely enough.....I hate seeing double handed boats being sailed single-handed. I do it in the Firefly totally because I believe the Firefly has a well established tradition of being sailed single handed and because I think that for small river/lake sailing, it makes a damn good single-hander. It is only 12ft and it has Mk 1 decks, so there is little room for my 15stone body and any other adult human frame. As much as I dislike seeing a double-hander being sailed one-up, I really dislike seeing people sail sometimes one-up and sometimes two-up, dependent on weather conditions.
Quite a while ago, I had a talk on this very subject with someone (Firefly Captain?) at Upper Thames SC, who have a long tradition with the Firefly and still host a single handed Firefly race. He argued that there should not be any difference for the boat when sailed single-handed.....BUT.....Once a Firefly had been entered into a race or series as one or the other, you could not change your mind for a later race in series. In other words you couldn't pick and choose. This makes total sense to me.
OK....so what should it be anyway?
Well I think this totally depends on the type of sailing and the weather conditions.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Firefly when sailed in low fickle winds on a river or small lake that demands quick tacking is a superlative choice for the conditions. In these conditions, whether double or single handed it can easily sail to its PY and arguably the PY should be altered by a club if these conditions are the norm. However sailing it single handed can really help you make the very very best of your advantages and can allow you to sail well above handicap with comparative ease.
BUT......as soon as the wind gets up....or as soon as you are trying to sail on a bigger bit of water, in fact if it is any kind of sailing where you are relying on boat-speed rather than sailing-skill you can just forget it.
Even though I am around 15-16 stone (Best Firefly crews are around 19-21 stone)there is no way that I can efficiently hold down the Firefly in windstrengths over F 3-4. On a big lake or sea in F3 or over, there is no advantage to being single-handed - in fact I would strongly suggest you are at a disadvantage.
So after much talk....what do I think it should be?
Well....of course I a biased....but I think that as long as it is always sailed single-handed, in big winds and little winds across a whole series of races, it should be on the normal handicap. There is no doubt that you will have an advantage in some races, but loose out in others, but over a series it will more or less even out (this was UTSC attitude).
But what do you do in the case of a one-off race, well of course this will depend on the conditions. In low winds or a river there is no doubt at all that taking 20 off will still leave you with a damn good handicap. If it is windy and or on a largish lake, I don't see how you can justify taking anything off.
However, if you sail on a river all the time....or if it is an evening series where you will expect low-winds as the norm....I think that an added 20 is pretty fair. But if you want to pick a figure which is there to stop helms from grabbing a crew when windy, then you will need 40 which certainly is punitive enough to do the trick.
At Baltic Wharf, 1140 (used to be 1142 or 1143) did seem about right....over a series, but personally I still think a boat should either be sailed single-handed or double-handed within a series.
I don't think you can really make an adjustment for the fact that the boat is a 1958 boat, or that it has an old mast or sails or whatever. The PY is worked out on the speed of a good typical example of the boat within the class. Of course as Chris says, we do do exactly this for CVRDA racing....but that was the original point and never supposed to be an example for club racing.
I hope that helps.
It may be worthwhile looking through Firefly Forum Archive as I know the subject has been discussed there as well.
Would certainly be interested in other people's thoughts. I think that the CVRDA has traditionally not changed the Firefly handicap for s/handed....anybody care to look through the results and make any deductions from those?
cheers
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
I've always had a point knocked off for singlehanding Saskia at CVRDA events. Sometimes the weather has been kind, others I've been blown sideways - weather shouldn't make a difference to the handicap, as all boats react differently, and "every dog has its day" and all that.
Should I be allowed to sail the series sometimes with a crew and sometimes not? Depends, really...usually, I'd not have a crew because Kathryn is looking after the kids. If she happens not to be, and we get the chance to sail together (not happened this year yet...) then we would sail together, whether it be windy or a calm. Another situation might be that I've been sailing singlehanded, but it gets too windy for me to compete at all inless I have a crew on board. Which is better - another boat out or 2 people sat on the shore. Whether we should count in the series is a duifferent matter I suppose.
At Whitefriars, it is the helm that counts, and one can sail any boat one likes and still count the race in a series. As far as I'm aware, the biggest abuse we get is Lasers changing rigs for the conditions - in other words, we get no abuse at all. But we do get more qualifiers for our series'. I think a helm would soon loose a crew if the crew was left ashore when the helm felt like it!
I now have a British Moth and a Solo, too, so deliberately don't sail Saskia singlehanded too much, as in the light stuff it was easy to do well, and in the stronger stuff impossible, which made doing a series rather odd. Mind, I've not won a race in either of my singlehanders yet. The Moth handicap is impossible except on tiny water and the Solo needs much TLC, especially the hull foils and rig...Oh, that is pretty much everything, then...
Should I be allowed to sail the series sometimes with a crew and sometimes not? Depends, really...usually, I'd not have a crew because Kathryn is looking after the kids. If she happens not to be, and we get the chance to sail together (not happened this year yet...) then we would sail together, whether it be windy or a calm. Another situation might be that I've been sailing singlehanded, but it gets too windy for me to compete at all inless I have a crew on board. Which is better - another boat out or 2 people sat on the shore. Whether we should count in the series is a duifferent matter I suppose.
At Whitefriars, it is the helm that counts, and one can sail any boat one likes and still count the race in a series. As far as I'm aware, the biggest abuse we get is Lasers changing rigs for the conditions - in other words, we get no abuse at all. But we do get more qualifiers for our series'. I think a helm would soon loose a crew if the crew was left ashore when the helm felt like it!
I now have a British Moth and a Solo, too, so deliberately don't sail Saskia singlehanded too much, as in the light stuff it was easy to do well, and in the stronger stuff impossible, which made doing a series rather odd. Mind, I've not won a race in either of my singlehanders yet. The Moth handicap is impossible except on tiny water and the Solo needs much TLC, especially the hull foils and rig...Oh, that is pretty much everything, then...
Rupert
-
Bill Sylvester
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:11 pm
OK thanks. I got the Firefly to sail singlehanded when I can't get a crew for the Merlin so I will experiment with 1140 for when I sail it and the proper number when someone else borrows it.
I don't feel so passionately about someone choosing to sail a double hander singlehanded. It is usually just for fun and can be very interesting. A mate borrowed my Merlin a few weeks ago in light winds and sailed it single-handed including launching and recovering the spinnaker with ordinary poles. Well worth watching. And a very select few in the mid sixties saw one, Lady Ann Coventry, sailing her International 14 singlehanded in a bucketful of wind with one foot on the centreboard outside the boat. Magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la voile serieux.
I don't feel so passionately about someone choosing to sail a double hander singlehanded. It is usually just for fun and can be very interesting. A mate borrowed my Merlin a few weeks ago in light winds and sailed it single-handed including launching and recovering the spinnaker with ordinary poles. Well worth watching. And a very select few in the mid sixties saw one, Lady Ann Coventry, sailing her International 14 singlehanded in a bucketful of wind with one foot on the centreboard outside the boat. Magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la voile serieux.