International Canoe K102 "Torment"

[Ed]

Well......just personally.....don't expect me to come up with any chemistry beyond a huntch.....

I would and have used Acetone, with some sucsess, mainly for removing sticky stuff. For mould, I am not sure what I would try beyond a mild detergent and a gentle scrub, or maybe a careful blast with the jet washer......but I would be very careful about using any bleach. Bleach rots material in a very strange and pernicious way, it takes weeks before it sets in, even after a good wash, it can fall apart. I wouldn't be so worried about the cloth, but would worry about the stiching.

Shouldn't of started the diversion over 'blog' or whatever....way off topic.

But I would say, that the line between a 'blog', a 'blogsite', a 'wiki', a 'CMS' driven site has now become very very blurred indeed. You just can't define a 'blog' that simply any more. Providing some area of the website where a 'blog-type' of interface could be used by members that allowed other users comments has long been discussed and who knows...maybe it is time we did that.

But sorry, AG. It would always have to be moderated.

You have no idea, if this forum removed all its moderation and allowed free posting from all, it would be broken within hours. Before we established our automatic filtering system, we were getting between 50 and a hundred new members a day. Each posting many times with wonderful links to porn, russian wives, extended willies, viagra etc etc etc.

We have only ever promised to allow and promote discussion of classic boats.

There are rules to posting on this forum - you agreed to them when you signed up. It benefits us all that we stay within these rules. There will always be the need for some level of moderation, mainly self-moderation. Without it, there simply wouldn't be a forum.

Though of course control of what is said is many peoples dream; to take away a right others died for.

mmmmmmmmmmmm........please!


eib

[Michael Brigg]

Ed, don't worry about AG, its the General election. Makes him come over all Churchillian!

I fully agree with the need for moderation. I lurk on the Talk Rowing website which is a prime example of bad moderation. 90% of posters are anonymous and 90% of their posts are offensive. Perhaps we should refer to our moderators as Facilitators.

Admin I'm not so concerned about a bit of meandering in a topic about boat restoration. The thread needs some variety from time to time to make it a narrative. Its one of the things I like about a forum. Like Mr Speaker crying "Order."

I wouldn't know how to go about a blog, and I personally feel blogs have a danger of becoming rather to pretentious and also it would fragment the layout of the forum a little too much to go down this line. There would be a danger of boat restorations, lovingly undertaken in the solitary confinement of the blog pages. Here in the forum you genuinely feel you have people looking over your shoulder as you do things. Some advise, some shout "Nooooo, dont do that!" And some enjoy a quiet ribbing as you drop your boom out of the rafters and through the new foredeck. (Heaven forbid )

For the moment Ill carry on and keep you posted on progress.

[davidh]

After my comments on the Seafly thread, I now find myself on the 'establishment' line for the 2nd time in less than 24 hours.... is this the election gettin to me or do I need so serious attention from the new IC owner?????

But I dirgress! This site is pretty much as 'good as it gets' forum wise. The conversations may be varied and often stray but they are respectful, well written and often very insightful.

However, when moderation is not properly practiced, all hell can be let loose. One website has become almost 'top shelf' material whilst another is now driving potential posters away. Then there is the business aspect - one forum poster who let his rhetoric run away with him, found that the company that he'd talked about in less than complimentary terms was ready to take him and the host of the forum to task for suggesting that the company was struggling.

If you want to be able to say whatever you like there are plenty of sites where this is encouraged but let's keep this one pretty much as is - for I would say that the balance is just about spot on. It reflects the views of most of us and is a pleasure to read......

D

[Ancient Geek]

Up to a point Lord Copper, the need to control Russia (ns) is absolute say what you like about Stalin - not in his day, and he stopped them travelling! (A fortunate side effect of the Ash Cloud?).
I can reluctantly see the need for moderation.
Sad but there we are.
Michael you flatter me, but for him we'd be speaking German or Japanese.
St Georges day on Friday, fly the flag.
Back to the canoe, I asked a chum in the cleaning business about mildew stains "Sodium Silicate" was his answer. Though where you would get the small quantity you'll need goodness only knows, a hospital laundry maybe?

[Ed]

Make your own?

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eib

[chris]

Mould stains,
Some hardware shops sell small bottles of Stain Devils. Each one for a specific stain. They do one for mould which seems to work OK and more or less safely from the fabric point of view. I have also tried soaking in a biological washing powder which seemd to work but the danger is the removal of the filler from the material, thus ruining the sail. What do the proffessional use or is that to remain a trade secret?

A warning against the Stain devil for rust stains: it does rot the material and for the same reason I would not use bleach or oxalic acid on any sail material. These may be OK if the stains goes quickly but for a more persistant stain where you need to repeat the process it will do damage. It seems to work by chemically changing whatever the stain is to another chemical that has no colour. It's not just a question of taking away colour. The chemists out there will tell all perhaps....Garry?

[Ancient Geek]

Not really helpfull for a canoe sail but the only sails I have seen being cleaned weerevery big boat sails and Ratseys were using a circular floor scrubber!
I am not sure that there will much filler left in a sail of the age of the one on the canoe it may even predate filler/resin coating which came in about 1963.

[Obscured by clouds]

I often wonder about filler, just through usage and storing the filler must dgenerate and wear off, and I have'nt even thought about UV degradation yet!

You would think that someone out there would come up with some form of wash in 'clogger' which might do the job of repairing the filler..

and maybe there is, although I've not tried it for this sort of job.

Nikwax do wash in waterproofers and the like, some of which, if used often enough will eventually lead to loss of porosity [which is what we're looking for here]. Not a good thing on your nice Paramo or Buffalo rain top but maybe worth a look at to semi-revive your old sails?

[Ancient Geek]

This was very well documented in the 1960's - 70's when Ratsey wove and treated their own "Vectis" sail cloth.
The other manufacturers (bainbridge et al.) were rather more coy.
It is in the case of the traditional sail cloths a mixture of weave, a coating which also fills the weave and a heat setting of the cloth that stabilises it. This gives the crackly finish which is at one end very stiff and the other (less filler more heat.) really rather like stiff cotton.
I would guess that refilling the cloth is impractical though a number of Merlin Cognisenti of the late 1960's did varnish the top panels of mainsails with 2 pack pu varnish to further stiffen it up.
If it's a really shot sail perhaps nothing to lose varnishing (with 2 pack.) a mainsail? I wouldn't think of it for a foresail though, they are disposable.

[Michael Brigg]

The Sail is a Ratsey's, dated 1972. Seems to have survived the Jet washer.

Performance wise, I just need sails to learn with. I would find the Mould and rust excessively distracting. A bit like having a huge boil on the end of your nose.

Its bad enough making a fool of yourself in a pretty boat. If your sails look like they shouldn't be on the water, it draws comment... although the first week or so on a Canoe is a bit like putting the sails throufg the washing machine.

When I start sailing a little better I may be able to find some new sails.

So its dishwaher soap next. The Net suggests Lemon juice or Vinegar, with salt and lots of rinsing. Pretty much the same process really of an Oxidising agent and weak acid.

[Ancient Geek]

So it will be "Vectis" Coated sail cloth.

[Ed]

I have a Ratseys promotional booklet about Vectris somewhere....

will try and dig it out and see if there is anything of use in that

cheers

eib

[Ancient Geek]

This from a West Coast of USA Sailmaker where apparently mildew is a real problem:
Sail Cleaning Tips

Keeping sails clean is part diligence, part science, and part fate. The fate part is closely
associated with the environment and climate where the sails are used and stored. For
example, if you use and store your sails in the Pacific Northwest, mildew will be a constant
and persistent foe.
When you find your sails are in need of cleaning, we suggest the following steps:
Cleaning Dacron sails:

Clean sails on a smooth surface. Avoid pavement and gravel or you will find
yourself sanding the back of your sail as you meticulously clean the front.
 Use a mild soap solution and fresh water.
 Use a soft bristle brush to remove dirt and salt.

Rinse thoroughly with fresh water. Keep rinsing until all soap residue is removed.

To remove oil or tar stains use a small amount of lighter fluid.

To remove mildew sailcloth manufacturers recommend a highly diluted solution of
Sodium Hypochlorite (3-5%). Because it is toxic to you and the environment, we
(Port Townsend Sails) object to the use of bleach except as a last resort. We have also
heard and common sense leads us to concur that bleach strips the coating from
thread and leaves stitching vulnerable to UV damage.
Never use bleach on nylon or laminated sails!

A hot tip for cleaning sails from PT Sails staff: Dilute 2Tbs Woolite and 1-2 cups
vinegar in 1 gallon water. Some of our customers have had great luck with this
solution.
Cleaning nylon sails:

Clean spinnakers and other light-air sails made of Nylon by rinsing with fresh
water.

Do not use bleach or other solvents; they will damage the fabric!
After cleaning:
 Dry the sails by hanging in a well ventilated area.
 Avoid flogging.

When you are sure no moisture remains on the sails, fold or roll the sails loosely.
 Store sails in a dry, well-ventilated area away from direct heat.
Note: Keeping sails clean and dry is an essential part of sail maintenance. Storing sails out of
the elements when not in use can prolong their life by years.
Hasse & Company Port Townsend Sails · 315 Jackson St. Port Townsend, WA 98368 · 360-385-1640

[Ed]

Clothes detergent and vinegar sounds sensible......

just wonder on....

I always thought that many detergents were pretty basic (alkali) in nature....but does this mean they need to be alkali to work?

If so, wouldn't the acetic acid either neutralise the basic detergent, or react with it to make something else....that may or may not have any cleaning capability?

How does that work?

eib

Anyway, see this as support for my theory of 'no bleach' and firm (but not hard) scrubbing in a mild detergent and warm water as being the only safe way to clean sails.

[alan williams]

Hi
One of the top Osprey sailors I used to crew for in the late 60,s early 70's used to varnish his sails after a sessions use to get another season out of them and then replace the following year.
Cheers Al