After countless exchanges feeding of my request for more information on the Ghost and Typhoon dinghies the string seems to be heading off into a new direction - so to (hopefully) help the matter all here is a recap on my last, parting comment.
I quoted an artilce in which is was stated that "dinghy design in the UK peaked all the way back in 1962 with Peter Milnes Fireball. Take out the Topper and since that date what influence on the world dinghy stage has come from these shores"
Then Rupert...the CVRDA member whose tag line is 'too much time to spare' countered with "The Clarage Magnum series of Moths, I'd say, have lead directly to the flying boats of today, and some of the other radical designs, so there is one, but as for one designs...Dart Cats? Laser Pico... "
To which I'd say...... true, very true BUT.... take as an example the RS800. Is that truely a full blown international class - a ground breaker design wise (or is that crown worn by the 49er?)
Please note... I'm glad to say that the quote re the Fireball is NOT mine...I'm just repeating it. But it could be a viewpoint worth expanding upon as it suggests that many/most of the designs that interest the CVRDA come from those golden days when britboat design really did mean something!
Comments/thoughts..... opposing views even?
David
Downhill all the way!!!!!!!!!!
British influences on dinghy sailing since '62? Hmmmmm.....
'Scuse me for asking, but does the Topper really have much influence worldwide? It seems to rely partly on Australia for its international status IIRC, but when I sailed at the only Topper club in the country we were lucky to get 3 boats out. Without knocking the boat, it doesn't seem to have much of an impact internationally.
Then again, IF (big if) the Topper was the spur to all the modern PE boats (Pico etc), maybe it was a major influence to dinghy sailng as we know it - anyone know?
The Claridge Magnums Moths, on the other hand, were very influential, and lead to the demise (sadly) of the Australian scow Moths down here. And a British designer (Andy Paterson) then created the next leap in Moths (the narrow skiffs) and then IIRC the first Moth foiler (although that concept was radically changed in Oz). So UK Mothies have probably lead the way for 20+ years, apart from the creation and perfection of the current monofoiler. And lots of skiff designers have looked to Moths for inspiration.
In 1962, Michael Jackson created March Hare which IMHO (and that of others who know more than I do about such things) was the first dinghy to have the U shaped sections we see on most modern boats. It was something of an influence in NS14s here in Australia, and NS14s later lead to a major change in Australian skiff hull shapes.
A British Mothie (Chris Edwards) is one of two guys who seems to have introduced tubular racks to sailing (replacing the old solid timber racks/wings). A Kiwi also brought them in at the same time but they caught on in Europe first as our more stable scows were less in need of them.
Weren't the British generally trying to hold back the I-14 development in the '60s and '70s? But later, wasn't it Cliff Norbury and others who first really pushed for a skiff type boat in the Olympics? Would the 49er have made it without the Norbury etc proposal beforehand? Does anyone know where Michael Jackson can be contacted? He would know, one would assume.
Morrison's impact on 14s is obviously strong although perhaps the innovations come from down south (in earlier years) and definitely Paul Bieker in the USA these days.
I would have thought the 800 was clearly just an easier-to-sail version of the pseudo skiff type? Phil doesn't seem to regard it as anything revolutionary.
'Scuse me for asking, but does the Topper really have much influence worldwide? It seems to rely partly on Australia for its international status IIRC, but when I sailed at the only Topper club in the country we were lucky to get 3 boats out. Without knocking the boat, it doesn't seem to have much of an impact internationally.
Then again, IF (big if) the Topper was the spur to all the modern PE boats (Pico etc), maybe it was a major influence to dinghy sailng as we know it - anyone know?
The Claridge Magnums Moths, on the other hand, were very influential, and lead to the demise (sadly) of the Australian scow Moths down here. And a British designer (Andy Paterson) then created the next leap in Moths (the narrow skiffs) and then IIRC the first Moth foiler (although that concept was radically changed in Oz). So UK Mothies have probably lead the way for 20+ years, apart from the creation and perfection of the current monofoiler. And lots of skiff designers have looked to Moths for inspiration.
In 1962, Michael Jackson created March Hare which IMHO (and that of others who know more than I do about such things) was the first dinghy to have the U shaped sections we see on most modern boats. It was something of an influence in NS14s here in Australia, and NS14s later lead to a major change in Australian skiff hull shapes.
A British Mothie (Chris Edwards) is one of two guys who seems to have introduced tubular racks to sailing (replacing the old solid timber racks/wings). A Kiwi also brought them in at the same time but they caught on in Europe first as our more stable scows were less in need of them.
Weren't the British generally trying to hold back the I-14 development in the '60s and '70s? But later, wasn't it Cliff Norbury and others who first really pushed for a skiff type boat in the Olympics? Would the 49er have made it without the Norbury etc proposal beforehand? Does anyone know where Michael Jackson can be contacted? He would know, one would assume.
Morrison's impact on 14s is obviously strong although perhaps the innovations come from down south (in earlier years) and definitely Paul Bieker in the USA these days.
I would have thought the 800 was clearly just an easier-to-sail version of the pseudo skiff type? Phil doesn't seem to regard it as anything revolutionary.
The 2 people I'm surprised haven't had more success world wide (though I'm sure you't find their boats everywhere) are Morrison and Howlett. I think, though, that many European countries are still stuck in the 1960's when it comes to dinghy types, and for better or for worse the Aussie/British asymmetric revolution has had less of an impact. And the US seems to have stopped at Uffa as far as importing dinghy designs goes, except for the olympic boats (though San Francisco seems not to have done).
But maybe times have changed and we need to measure success by the number of designs a designer has based at Sunsail sites? In which case Jo Richards is the designer of the decade! (And Yves Loday, but being French he doesn't count in this arguement!)
But maybe times have changed and we need to measure success by the number of designs a designer has based at Sunsail sites? In which case Jo Richards is the designer of the decade! (And Yves Loday, but being French he doesn't count in this arguement!)
Rupert
All very valid points Chris - and well made. As I said, this was a quote that I picked up and something that gave me a lot of thought too. I suppose that if you go by the ISAF standard of who's got full international status then you can see where the writer was coming from.
Another way of looking at it though is that there is an undoubted fragmentation of our sailing here due to the proliferation of classes. Last weekend, at a major South Coast winter event the comment was made that it was like Noah's Ark ( 2 of everything. While this richness of choice offers us the ability to sail such a wide range of boats it does also dilute the effort somewhat.
At the end of my opening comment I tried to reflect the question in terms of the CVRDA and it's place as a guardian of some of the 'best of british' design. I can think of lots of ways this string could go - for example, will it take 40 years for there to be an equivalent to the cvrda to say 'we must say the last RS600.....'
Again - think LaserII, Spice, Boss, Laser 5000, MRX.
In the development classes there are so many examples of radical though ( in Merlins think Phil Morrison's Aspiration or the Steven Jones 'Shaft', in 12's 'Baggy Trousers', The Skol/Magnum moths...the list is endless) that all qualify for inclusion into the association so we've rich pickings.
As a final thought....way back in the mid -60's Elvstrom was expounding the view that the Olympics should be held in 1,2, 3,4 and 5 men trapeze boats. A look at his (sadly unsuccessful) Trapeze dinghy shows a way forward - low rocker, flat, light, generous sail area.....
Chris - you mentioned an Australian article on the Ghost: Is there any chance of a photo copy of this at all to add to my growing file on the boat.
David
Another way of looking at it though is that there is an undoubted fragmentation of our sailing here due to the proliferation of classes. Last weekend, at a major South Coast winter event the comment was made that it was like Noah's Ark ( 2 of everything. While this richness of choice offers us the ability to sail such a wide range of boats it does also dilute the effort somewhat.
At the end of my opening comment I tried to reflect the question in terms of the CVRDA and it's place as a guardian of some of the 'best of british' design. I can think of lots of ways this string could go - for example, will it take 40 years for there to be an equivalent to the cvrda to say 'we must say the last RS600.....'
Again - think LaserII, Spice, Boss, Laser 5000, MRX.
In the development classes there are so many examples of radical though ( in Merlins think Phil Morrison's Aspiration or the Steven Jones 'Shaft', in 12's 'Baggy Trousers', The Skol/Magnum moths...the list is endless) that all qualify for inclusion into the association so we've rich pickings.
As a final thought....way back in the mid -60's Elvstrom was expounding the view that the Olympics should be held in 1,2, 3,4 and 5 men trapeze boats. A look at his (sadly unsuccessful) Trapeze dinghy shows a way forward - low rocker, flat, light, generous sail area.....
Chris - you mentioned an Australian article on the Ghost: Is there any chance of a photo copy of this at all to add to my growing file on the boat.
David
David H
Ta. It's an interesting quote, and I think it's from someone I think we both "know" (in a net sense) and I (at least) respect.
Here in Oz we have a different problem - we are some into class racing you can't get a new class going. In some ways that's good, obviously, but it worries me a bit that we end up ignoring new areas (singlehanded skiffs for instance) and worse, we end up with none of the interesting new breed of beginner's boats. Nothing against Herons (a big class here) and Mirrors etc, but they just aren't available to new sailors in the same way a Pico is in the UK.
Trapez is a very interesting boat; a great concept in that it had the "multi role" aspect with beginners cat and sloop rigs, normal rig, and a massive two-up rig, and it was all on a strict SMOD. It had the right contacts, the right publicity; it COULD have changed the world but the hull shape was wrong. That's interesting, considering that many people reckon Lasers etc only work 'cause of promotion (although Lasers were NOT heavily promoted at first). The boat was too flat and/or too Veed forward according to all reports. Some of the few remaining (sloop rigged/2 up) Trapez sailors say it's a dream to sail in flat water, but slow and difficult in chop.
Elvstrom's vision was interesting, but as a guy from the heart of skiffland, and someone who went through the windsurfing boom and collapse, and has seen record Laser fleets over the last couple of years, I have to say that there are big problems in making a sport appear too difficult. IMHO the whole great dinghy boom was born out of the cheap simple family boats; Bethwaite says it was the performance leap of the 505 and FD, but that isn't borne out when I chart growth figures of various classes.
I'll connect up the scanner sometime shortly; hassle me if you don't recieve the Ghost article.
Here in Oz we have a different problem - we are some into class racing you can't get a new class going. In some ways that's good, obviously, but it worries me a bit that we end up ignoring new areas (singlehanded skiffs for instance) and worse, we end up with none of the interesting new breed of beginner's boats. Nothing against Herons (a big class here) and Mirrors etc, but they just aren't available to new sailors in the same way a Pico is in the UK.
Trapez is a very interesting boat; a great concept in that it had the "multi role" aspect with beginners cat and sloop rigs, normal rig, and a massive two-up rig, and it was all on a strict SMOD. It had the right contacts, the right publicity; it COULD have changed the world but the hull shape was wrong. That's interesting, considering that many people reckon Lasers etc only work 'cause of promotion (although Lasers were NOT heavily promoted at first). The boat was too flat and/or too Veed forward according to all reports. Some of the few remaining (sloop rigged/2 up) Trapez sailors say it's a dream to sail in flat water, but slow and difficult in chop.
Elvstrom's vision was interesting, but as a guy from the heart of skiffland, and someone who went through the windsurfing boom and collapse, and has seen record Laser fleets over the last couple of years, I have to say that there are big problems in making a sport appear too difficult. IMHO the whole great dinghy boom was born out of the cheap simple family boats; Bethwaite says it was the performance leap of the 505 and FD, but that isn't borne out when I chart growth figures of various classes.
I'll connect up the scanner sometime shortly; hassle me if you don't recieve the Ghost article.
Do we know who bought that Trapez on ebay recently?
I know the Unit went to someone on the forum....would be nice to get both and toy to an event.
Here is a challenge....what about trying to reconvene all the boats that were at the famous 1965/66 singlehanded trials. What a laugh that would be.
cheers
eib
I know the Unit went to someone on the forum....would be nice to get both and toy to an event.
Here is a challenge....what about trying to reconvene all the boats that were at the famous 1965/66 singlehanded trials. What a laugh that would be.
cheers
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
Hi Ed,
I fired off a string a while back in December asking about the Trapeze but sadly it seems that the Trapeze went elsewhere - at least not to an Association member. I hope someone can correct me on that but.......
Your idea is just brilliant - I think I know where Contender K16 is (or was) - you'd have to be careful as they've come such a long way since the early days. Many of the other classes are still with us - it would be the real one-offs for the Trials that would pose the biggest problem. I know that for a while the Cavalier was left around but unless someone knows otherwise I think that there was only ever 1 or 2 of them and they'd be long gone.
Having sailed Contenders with the 'old' rig ( a very thin and wobbly proctor with diamonds and no lowers) I think that Andrew from Emsworth- who bought the Unit - would once again give the Contender a real run for it's money. I've got the 'lowdown' on the IYRU series and in many ways the Unit was (across the broad spectrum of sailing conditions) the better boat. Take nothing away from the Contender though, it's a superb boat that, offwind in breeze and waves, gives one of the great sailing experiences.
Still....an interesting and novel idea for a sailing get together: Tere would also be the trials that chose the 470 (Fireball,470.... Typhoon!!!!!!!!)
David
I fired off a string a while back in December asking about the Trapeze but sadly it seems that the Trapeze went elsewhere - at least not to an Association member. I hope someone can correct me on that but.......
Your idea is just brilliant - I think I know where Contender K16 is (or was) - you'd have to be careful as they've come such a long way since the early days. Many of the other classes are still with us - it would be the real one-offs for the Trials that would pose the biggest problem. I know that for a while the Cavalier was left around but unless someone knows otherwise I think that there was only ever 1 or 2 of them and they'd be long gone.
Having sailed Contenders with the 'old' rig ( a very thin and wobbly proctor with diamonds and no lowers) I think that Andrew from Emsworth- who bought the Unit - would once again give the Contender a real run for it's money. I've got the 'lowdown' on the IYRU series and in many ways the Unit was (across the broad spectrum of sailing conditions) the better boat. Take nothing away from the Contender though, it's a superb boat that, offwind in breeze and waves, gives one of the great sailing experiences.
Still....an interesting and novel idea for a sailing get together: Tere would also be the trials that chose the 470 (Fireball,470.... Typhoon!!!!!!!!)
David
David H
Au Contraire Rupert!
Actually - there were 3 sets of trials (weymouth, La baule and medemblik)! I've researched and documented the story, I just need a few more facts and figures - and a photo or two and the whole lot will be off (I hope here) to Dinghy magazine.
It's some story - not one that the establishment should be overly proud off though in the end the winner - the Contender, has proven to be a true 'International' class that is worthy of that title in all respects.
Would the Unit have prospered in a similar vein..... who knows, an impossible question to consider BUT - the Unit was an excellant boat and one that Andrew will enjoy sailing. I noted that Alan Williams had a shot of the Unit at Weston.... a shame as I tried it while based there for Contendering purposes but by then the plank had been removed in favour of a trapeze - and later on I think racks were added. Last seen in the long grass there - a sad end to one heck of a boat.
David
Actually - there were 3 sets of trials (weymouth, La baule and medemblik)! I've researched and documented the story, I just need a few more facts and figures - and a photo or two and the whole lot will be off (I hope here) to Dinghy magazine.
It's some story - not one that the establishment should be overly proud off though in the end the winner - the Contender, has proven to be a true 'International' class that is worthy of that title in all respects.
Would the Unit have prospered in a similar vein..... who knows, an impossible question to consider BUT - the Unit was an excellant boat and one that Andrew will enjoy sailing. I noted that Alan Williams had a shot of the Unit at Weston.... a shame as I tried it while based there for Contendering purposes but by then the plank had been removed in favour of a trapeze - and later on I think racks were added. Last seen in the long grass there - a sad end to one heck of a boat.
David
David H
Well, I was only born 1/2 way through the process, so all a little hazy! I look forward to publication, as I've wondered what on earth was going on all that time. Did the Finn just run down and sink all the other entries?! Presumebly it was the Finn lobby which managed that, actually...Good old Olympics!
Rupert
Rupert,
You've got it!
There was a school of thought around the mid 60's that the Finn was elitist and over technical - back in the days of spruce masts with people shaving down their masts to get the 'right' shape and that it was only a viable concern for the heavyweights.
Once the Contender had been chosen there was a strong rearguard action that saw the Finn Associations around the world lobbying hard for it's retention. You'd need to look deeply into the IYRU records to get the full story but for a while there was some discord about the very nature of Olympic yachting. There was the Star, Soling and Tempest set off against the Finn and FD. No wonder for a time there were comments flying around that the 5 ring circus was indeed just that to say nothing of the earlier comment about elitist and overly technical.
A shame, the Contender would have made a good Olympic boat but historically has probably done better by NOT being selected. Maybe at some point in the future the clamour will grow to see a singlehanded skiff replace the Finn: would that be good for sailing overall.....another question altogether and one that would, I'm sure, fill many a string.
David
You've got it!
There was a school of thought around the mid 60's that the Finn was elitist and over technical - back in the days of spruce masts with people shaving down their masts to get the 'right' shape and that it was only a viable concern for the heavyweights.
Once the Contender had been chosen there was a strong rearguard action that saw the Finn Associations around the world lobbying hard for it's retention. You'd need to look deeply into the IYRU records to get the full story but for a while there was some discord about the very nature of Olympic yachting. There was the Star, Soling and Tempest set off against the Finn and FD. No wonder for a time there were comments flying around that the 5 ring circus was indeed just that to say nothing of the earlier comment about elitist and overly technical.
A shame, the Contender would have made a good Olympic boat but historically has probably done better by NOT being selected. Maybe at some point in the future the clamour will grow to see a singlehanded skiff replace the Finn: would that be good for sailing overall.....another question altogether and one that would, I'm sure, fill many a string.
David
David H
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rupert</i>
<br />The 2 people I'm surprised haven't had more success world wide (though I'm sure you't find their boats everywhere) are Morrison and Howlett. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I've never seen a Howlett dinghy I'd consider even mediocre... He wasn't any good in 12 metres either. Morrison's are fine though.
<br />The 2 people I'm surprised haven't had more success world wide (though I'm sure you't find their boats everywhere) are Morrison and Howlett. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I've never seen a Howlett dinghy I'd consider even mediocre... He wasn't any good in 12 metres either. Morrison's are fine though.
It's a hard call that Jim......IH has lifted some sweet designs up from the drawing board, as an example the Howlett 1b Int 14, for a while, carried all before it.
It's hard to see his contribution to boat design in perspective without looking at the work he's done - and is still doing - with Topper Int. Let's not forget that the Iso went a long way to 'breaking the mould' of what was, at that time, rather a stodgy UK dinghy scene. The TI range may not be to everyones taste but there are some gems there...... a few years back I did a seasons campaign in a Buzz and found it a great boat to sail: well mannered, fast and, to my suprise (and against all predictions) a reasonable weight carrier! (this was in the pre 29er days I hasten to add).
To compound this confession I have in the last 48hours gone and bought another Howlett design - the Blaze. The CVRDA will not be interested in such boats till almost half way through the century but in defense of IH I went for the Blaze for same reason I went for the Buzz; a fast, controlled ride (albeit at the expense of light weather performance) and a well mannered boat - just the thing for a Contender sailor getting a bit slow and creaky!!
Morrison boats, as you say, are equally noteworthy, having raced in his Merlins and 14's I've come to appreciate the boat handling of these designs too. As always though it's 'Horses for Courses' - we've so many designs to choose from now that you can really pick something you really like!
D
It's hard to see his contribution to boat design in perspective without looking at the work he's done - and is still doing - with Topper Int. Let's not forget that the Iso went a long way to 'breaking the mould' of what was, at that time, rather a stodgy UK dinghy scene. The TI range may not be to everyones taste but there are some gems there...... a few years back I did a seasons campaign in a Buzz and found it a great boat to sail: well mannered, fast and, to my suprise (and against all predictions) a reasonable weight carrier! (this was in the pre 29er days I hasten to add).
To compound this confession I have in the last 48hours gone and bought another Howlett design - the Blaze. The CVRDA will not be interested in such boats till almost half way through the century but in defense of IH I went for the Blaze for same reason I went for the Buzz; a fast, controlled ride (albeit at the expense of light weather performance) and a well mannered boat - just the thing for a Contender sailor getting a bit slow and creaky!!
Morrison boats, as you say, are equally noteworthy, having raced in his Merlins and 14's I've come to appreciate the boat handling of these designs too. As always though it's 'Horses for Courses' - we've so many designs to choose from now that you can really pick something you really like!
D
David H
The Blaze is a lovely boat. We have a couple of them at Whitefriars, and even on a light wind wed evening race the best sailed of them can creep away from a Firefly and beat it on handicap if blessed with a little luck. In a big breeze, they are very fast, mainly through being able to stay upright, as they are not too extreme.
I also liked Ian Howlett's 6 metre designs at the time, though memory has faded as to detail.
I also liked Ian Howlett's 6 metre designs at the time, though memory has faded as to detail.
Rupert
Ahhh, the singlehander trials; fascinating stuff, with a huge number of great designers throwing around ideas like sliding seats set for differing weights, spinnaker chutes, stub masts, etc.
It's also interesting to see that the Finn has been fighting criticism since the '50s, and by the time the ISAF trials came around they had considered fitting little fold-out hiking seats like the Swedish cruising canoes the Finn was copied from.
The Contender, IIRC, seemed one of the best in the light (not as fast as Jeton in light stuff, according to Craig Whitworth who steered it in the 3rd round, but one of the best)and clearly best in breeze. Craig says that he also spent a lot of time trying to make the boat look easier to sail than it was! His comment to me was something like "I was making sure my hair was neatly combed while I was working my guts out to stay upright". From published comments, he succeeded.
I've seen a video of one of the early hard-chine prototypes going about as fast as an Australis A Class cat which won the trials for a one design A Class about the same time. But the IYRU requirements destroyed Blinky Bob's vision for a boat that could be carried under one arm, and made it heavier and bigger.
Unit was a great boat, one of the top throughout all three rounds, but apparently a bit tippy downwind from press reports. Looking at her lines, the very Vee bow looks more old fashioned than the Contender shape IMHO.
Shelley did a great looking boat, very modern looking, for the second trials but she started going well early and then faded. Fine bows might be OK today but she may have pitched under heavy old rigs.
I was only about 3 at the time, but looking through old mags it seems that we have not seen such a varied and interesting bunch of boats since then.
Of course, we all know that it was the Canoe that won the first trials by up to 15 minutes and was then ruled out by the IYRU........
It's also interesting to see that the Finn has been fighting criticism since the '50s, and by the time the ISAF trials came around they had considered fitting little fold-out hiking seats like the Swedish cruising canoes the Finn was copied from.
The Contender, IIRC, seemed one of the best in the light (not as fast as Jeton in light stuff, according to Craig Whitworth who steered it in the 3rd round, but one of the best)and clearly best in breeze. Craig says that he also spent a lot of time trying to make the boat look easier to sail than it was! His comment to me was something like "I was making sure my hair was neatly combed while I was working my guts out to stay upright". From published comments, he succeeded.
I've seen a video of one of the early hard-chine prototypes going about as fast as an Australis A Class cat which won the trials for a one design A Class about the same time. But the IYRU requirements destroyed Blinky Bob's vision for a boat that could be carried under one arm, and made it heavier and bigger.
Unit was a great boat, one of the top throughout all three rounds, but apparently a bit tippy downwind from press reports. Looking at her lines, the very Vee bow looks more old fashioned than the Contender shape IMHO.
Shelley did a great looking boat, very modern looking, for the second trials but she started going well early and then faded. Fine bows might be OK today but she may have pitched under heavy old rigs.
I was only about 3 at the time, but looking through old mags it seems that we have not seen such a varied and interesting bunch of boats since then.
Of course, we all know that it was the Canoe that won the first trials by up to 15 minutes and was then ruled out by the IYRU........