A couple of little jobs on Finn K60...

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azimuth
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A couple of little jobs on Finn K60...

Post by azimuth » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:37 am

Hi All,

Doing a couple of little jobs on the finn (wooden fairey) and looking for a little bit of advice - not done loads of this kind of thing and with this boat I do feel a responsibility to be sure to get things right first time!

First job - re-fitting the self bailers to (hopefully) eliminate the leaks. I've got super shutes (the plastic ones), I've had to remove them completely and replace as taking out the little screws from underneath to change the seals in situ was not going well - the screws kept breaking! Inside the hull there is a layer of veneer removed so the bailers sit flush outside. Previously there was some gunk/glue/sealant around the bailer so there is nowhere for dampness to collect, I've had to chip this away with a chisel but I think I should replace it once refitted - I've no idea what was used before, any suggests on what I should redo it with? Pic of the area mid chipping away here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wl0a1t03vqvsd ... 1.jpg?dl=0

Second job - fitting a centre swivel instead of side cleats for the mainsheet. Because this needs a spacer under it to get the right angle I need 3.5 inch screws which I think means the only option is machine screws. This might be a silly question but are machine screws ok going directly into pilot holes in wood (nearly an inch think I think) without being able to put a nut on the other end? Should they have some form of glue (or even sikaflex) in the hole too to make sure it's good and strong?

Sorry if these Qs are a bit newbie - many thanks for any advice offered!

Thanks
Keith
Keith.

Finn K60 'Sfinnx' Fairey
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PeterV
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Re: A couple of little jobs on Finn K60...

Post by PeterV » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:42 am

Keith,
I've always fitted bailers with some Sikaflex to seal around them. I would prefer screws into wood for your cleat but epoxy would probably hold your machine screws in well enough.
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jpa_wfsc
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Re: A couple of little jobs on Finn K60...

Post by jpa_wfsc » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:13 am

Machine screws would work in epoxy but only if you never wanted them to never come out again - I would go for wood screws instead. Perhaps a better solution would be to weld machine nuts under a steel plate, which is then permanently fixed to the floor with epoxy and screws.. Then your machine screws could run into the captive nuts and your swivel is then removable for maintenance.

But I would also think 4 or 5 times before switching to using a centre cleat on a Finn - certainly the side cleats worked very well for me. I only ever cleated the main when on a long tack close hauled - all the rest of the time I was constantly working the main sheet so a centre cleat would have just been in the way all the time. And when you are hiking out hard, the centre cleat would be out of sight and hard to use.
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Re: A couple of little jobs on Finn K60...

Post by alan williams » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:20 am

Hi Keith
Like Peter said bed the bailers down on sikaflex. I'm still not convinced that the center jammer is the way to go. I cleat my main side with cleats and then play the traveler. I've tidied up the Vanguard and have even painted the Gunnels. Freed up the mast gate and have got the adjuster working with the help of Chris Mulholland WD40 and a big hammer so hopefully the mast rack can now be set for the Needlespar. Should you be interested in a new Dacron sail contact me as Chris Davison of Ullmans can make a new sail for £575 but will give us a 10 -20% discount depending on the number of orders he receives. See you at Hunts hotel is booked and time off arranged.
All the best Al

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Re: A couple of little jobs on Finn K60...

Post by Ian Malcolm » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:18 am

Machine screws can be removed from Epoxy if they are brand new with no thread defects and are coated with a thin even layer of paraffin wax before installation in the wet epoxy. However it does weaken the bond a bit. One trick if you want a reinforced thread is to wet out some kevlar roving and worm it into the screw thread before pushing the screw into the wet epoxy mix in the hole.

Given the choice, I'd probably choose to use bronze or stainless threaded inserts. set in with epoxy. You get a nice coarse wood thread on the outside increasing the load bearing surface area, and a strong metal thread on the inside. The common hardware store ones are brass or mild steel and although brass may be tolerable on a fresh water boat, I wouldn't want it long term unless its in a blind hole so it can be effectively sealed. You'll need to special order the stainless or bronze ones.
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Re: A couple of little jobs on Finn K60...

Post by Rupert » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:57 am

Now, that method I would trust, Ian. All the others just have that modicum of doubt attached whether it be screwcholding or rot potential.

Having said that, I'd not put the cleat on at all.
Rupert

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Ed
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Re: A couple of little jobs on Finn K60...

Post by Ed » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:05 pm

Nice answer Ian.

Casting in bolts with epoxy is a pretty well documented process:

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/How ... 061205.pdf Chapter 14 p129

I have had to butcher a few fasteners getting them out and normally leave a longer external bit to allow that. If they are recalcitrant heating them up with a soldering iron seems to have helped. But nice touch with the tows.....I think I have come across that in past, but had totally forgotten.

For what it's worth, I have also used this process for bodge-fixes on motorcycles/cars when aluminium threads have been totally stripped and I either couldn't or didn't want to fit a helicoil.

cheers

eib
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azimuth
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Re: A couple of little jobs on Finn K60...

Post by azimuth » Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:55 pm

Hello All,

Many thanks for the advice, sorry to be a bit slow replying....

I've now managed to find screws which are long enough - from Ireland! They will have 1/8" less going into the wood than the previous fitting but i think it should be ok as there will be 4 or them rather than 3 and I'm not sure the wood is thick enough it could make a difference anyway.

The side vs centre swivel in a finn thing... I've been sailing centre swivel for a few years now so am used to it (this is how my vanguard is set up). I was interested to try the side cleats when I got the farey but found they were in the wrong place and getting it cleated in strong winds was impossible, I thought about moving them to a different position on the deck but it seemed criminal to drill holes in that lovely woodwork as an experiment! Also both boats the same fit out seems logical... Whether I will get the centre swivel in before hunts not sure, Alan if I don't maybe we could do some boat swapping so I can experiment before drilling?

Re the self bailers - sixaflex to bed in - definitely, it's on order! Don't think I explained my question very well, what I was wondering is if there were any suggestions for something more aesthetically pleasing than white sealant I could put on the joint between hull and bailer on the inside (like the stuff in the pic -link above) which would stop water collecting around the edge of the bailer where there is a lip due to one less veneer? Maybe this is over fussy but with this boat I feel I need to do the best possible job and try to match the standards of those who've worked on her before (no pressure!)!

Alan - thanks for the suggestion and your deal arranging re the new sails, I will have a think about this and get back to you in a few days...

Thanks
Keith
Keith.

Finn K60 'Sfinnx' Fairey
Zenith 74 'Azimuth' (rescued from the undergrowth 20yrs ago)
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trebor
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Re: A couple of little jobs on Finn K60...

Post by trebor » Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:28 pm

Hi Keith, you may already know, sealer is available in different colours.
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Re: A couple of little jobs on Finn K60...

Post by Ian Malcolm » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:13 pm

I wouldn't expect a thin layer of Sikaflex or similar used for fairing to stay put very well. Anything rubbing on the feather edge will probably cause it to peel back unless you apply it to still tacky G4 then overcoat with the same while the sealent is still at the 'green' cure stage.

The original looks to have been faired with clear epoxy or similar. If I was stuck with a job like that, I'd look for a supplier of small quantities of a flexible clear epoxy in syringes or tubes just to fair it after its been properly bedded on sealant.
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azimuth
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Re: A couple of little jobs on Finn K60...

Post by azimuth » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:51 pm

Thanks Malcolm, the old stuff certainly seemed like a glue of some kind, I had wondered if it might be an expoxy but don't know much about them. I have some on order and will give that a go.

Hopefully get the bailers bolted and bedded in tomorrow!

Cheers,
Keith
Keith.

Finn K60 'Sfinnx' Fairey
Zenith 74 'Azimuth' (rescued from the undergrowth 20yrs ago)
Zenith 61 'Bali Hai'... A family heirloom...

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